4 ms·

> Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours pe

by tharne 4y ago

> Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job *is* being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. > Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years. Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. More likely, we're going to end up with multiple distinct internets and computing ecosystems in the future. Whether this is good or bad, who knows. Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief.

senttoschool 4y ago
>Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tharne 4y ago
  > But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. No one's telling Tim Cook how to run Apple; just stating facts about how the world works. Tim Cook (presumably) wants the best developers. The best developers have many good options to choose from when it comes to where and how they work. That means if Tim Cook wants the best talent he needs to give them a really compelling offer. And for many of the most talented individuals, a job that requires commuting 2+ hours a day in Bay traffic is not "really compelling", never mind the nightmare that is the Bay Area housing market. I'll grant that there are advantages to having everyone working face to face, but do those advantages outweigh the fact that you're going to take a noticeable talent hit as a result of not offering remote work? Neither one of us has a crystal ball, but my bet is "No". Tim Cook is free to make his own bet and deal with the consequences, which he seems to be aware of, hence the hesitation on his part vs. just laying down the law. I suppose we'll find out the answer to this debate in 10 to 20 years.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  > Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. How about the Apple ML Director? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tells-staff-to-come-into-the-office-for-at-least-three-days-a-week https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tel... The petition was created by actual Apple employees, not by random armchair HN posters.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    What about the ML director? You don't think Apple has anticipated that some will quit over this mandate? You don't think they have data on their employees? Or surveyed a portion of them?
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      You don't think he counts as an exec, that his opinion is of value?

by tharne 4y ago

senttoschool 4y ago

>Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tharne 4y ago
> But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. No one's telling Tim Cook how to run Apple; just stating facts about how the world works. Tim Cook (presumably) wants the best developers. The best developers have many good options to choose from when it comes to where and how they work. That means if Tim Cook wants the best talent he needs to give them a really compelling offer. And for many of the most talented individuals, a job that requires commuting 2+ hours a day in Bay traffic is not "really compelling", never mind the nightmare that is the Bay Area housing market. I'll grant that there are advantages to having everyone working face to face, but do those advantages outweigh the fact that you're going to take a noticeable talent hit as a result of not offering remote work? Neither one of us has a crystal ball, but my bet is "No". Tim Cook is free to make his own bet and deal with the consequences, which he seems to be aware of, hence the hesitation on his part vs. just laying down the law. I suppose we'll find out the answer to this debate in 10 to 20 years.
Apocryphon 4y ago
> Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. How about the Apple ML Director? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tells-staff-to-come-into-the-office-for-at-least-three-days-a-week https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tel... The petition was created by actual Apple employees, not by random armchair HN posters.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  What about the ML director? You don't think Apple has anticipated that some will quit over this mandate? You don't think they have data on their employees? Or surveyed a portion of them?
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    You don't think he counts as an exec, that his opinion is of value?