7 ms·

You have to be reasonably talented to work at Apple. turns out that talented people have other options and don't like being pushed around like a bunch of peasan

by tharne 4y ago

You have to be reasonably talented to work at Apple. turns out that talented people have other options and don't like being pushed around like a bunch of peasants. Who've a thunk it?

senttoschool 4y ago
Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Ok. Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years.
- tharne 4y ago
  > Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job *is* being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. > Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years. Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. More likely, we're going to end up with multiple distinct internets and computing ecosystems in the future. Whether this is good or bad, who knows. Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    >Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - tharne 4y ago
      > But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. No one's telling Tim Cook how to run Apple; just stating facts about how the world works. Tim Cook (presumably) wants the best developers. The best developers have many good options to choose from when it comes to where and how they work. That means if Tim Cook wants the best talent he needs to give them a really compelling offer. And for many of the most talented individuals, a job that requires commuting 2+ hours a day in Bay traffic is not "really compelling", never mind the nightmare that is the Bay Area housing market. I'll grant that there are advantages to having everyone working face to face, but do those advantages outweigh the fact that you're going to take a noticeable talent hit as a result of not offering remote work? Neither one of us has a crystal ball, but my bet is "No". Tim Cook is free to make his own bet and deal with the consequences, which he seems to be aware of, hence the hesitation on his part vs. just laying down the law. I suppose we'll find out the answer to this debate in 10 to 20 years.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      > Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. How about the Apple ML Director? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tells-staff-to-come-into-the-office-for-at-least-three-days-a-week https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tel... The petition was created by actual Apple employees, not by random armchair HN posters.
      - senttoschool 4y ago
        What about the ML director? You don't think Apple has anticipated that some will quit over this mandate? You don't think they have data on their employees? Or surveyed a portion of them?
        Apocryphon 4y ago
        You don't think he counts as an exec, that his opinion is of value?
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  996 culture in China is getting so bad the actual government is taking steps against it. Shenzhen working conditions will eventually reach parity with that in Silicon Valley. You think Chinese tech employees don't also want remote work? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDzTKI9a78k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDzTKI9a78k
  - tharne 4y ago
    Exactly, folks like @senttoschool seem to think that somehow Chinese workers are okay with being treated like shit indefinitely - they aren't. Like anyone else, Chinese workers are going to push for better wages and working conditions. We've already seen this with wages in India for software devs.
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      Wait, when did I say Silicon Valley folks should work 996? I just said they should return to office if/when their employer mandates it. You think this is "being pushed around like peasants" and working 996. Come on man. It's the damn office. You know. The place everyone worked from as recent as 2020? People in China are working 996. People here are still "working" from home and refusing to come back to the office. A lot of spoiled workers here. Hopefully a recession will wake them up soon. I loved it when Elon said everyone back in the office or quit. Apple won't say this because they don't want any bad PR but they should.
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        You implied that Chinese tech workers work harder than their Silicon Valley equivalents. And that is true, because 996 culture is widespread there. But 996 is also receiving backlash, and in time they will reach convergence with the work conditions of American workers. And when they call for remote work as well, will you call them "spoiled" too? (Not to mention, with the zero-COVID policies there, there are probably plenty of Chinese tech workers working remotely.) Calling acceptance of remote work "spoiled" is being ignorant of history. Just a few years ago, this extent of remote was unthinkable in tech. Companies would rather spend lavishly on slick hip offices with foosball tables no one played, on beer kegs that weren't exactly professional, to entice employees to work on-site, in open offices. Open offices are a near-universal bane of the industry and there was no check against management from adopting them. This past two years of remote was an unexpected windfall. And you call employees spoiled for finally getting a chance to escape the commute, away from open offices? Fine. That's your value system and you may live by it. Don't expect most people to agree. As for Musk, the anti-remote tempest in a teapot was clearly another one of his acts of social media sleights-of-hand. Tesla was planning layoffs, and encouraging employees to quit because of the sideshow of remote vs. onsite was a convenient way to avoid paying termination benefits. Congrats on falling for the gambit.

by tharne 4y ago

You have to be reasonably talented to work at Apple. turns out that talented people have other options and don't like being pushed around like a bunch of peasants. Who've a thunk it?

senttoschool 4y ago

Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Ok. Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years.

tharne 4y ago
> Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job *is* being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. > Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years. Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. More likely, we're going to end up with multiple distinct internets and computing ecosystems in the future. Whether this is good or bad, who knows. Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  >Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - tharne 4y ago
    > But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. No one's telling Tim Cook how to run Apple; just stating facts about how the world works. Tim Cook (presumably) wants the best developers. The best developers have many good options to choose from when it comes to where and how they work. That means if Tim Cook wants the best talent he needs to give them a really compelling offer. And for many of the most talented individuals, a job that requires commuting 2+ hours a day in Bay traffic is not "really compelling", never mind the nightmare that is the Bay Area housing market. I'll grant that there are advantages to having everyone working face to face, but do those advantages outweigh the fact that you're going to take a noticeable talent hit as a result of not offering remote work? Neither one of us has a crystal ball, but my bet is "No". Tim Cook is free to make his own bet and deal with the consequences, which he seems to be aware of, hence the hesitation on his part vs. just laying down the law. I suppose we'll find out the answer to this debate in 10 to 20 years.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    > Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. How about the Apple ML Director? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tells-staff-to-come-into-the-office-for-at-least-three-days-a-week https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/16/apple-tel... The petition was created by actual Apple employees, not by random armchair HN posters.
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      What about the ML director? You don't think Apple has anticipated that some will quit over this mandate? You don't think they have data on their employees? Or surveyed a portion of them?
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        You don't think he counts as an exec, that his opinion is of value?
Apocryphon 4y ago
996 culture in China is getting so bad the actual government is taking steps against it. Shenzhen working conditions will eventually reach parity with that in Silicon Valley. You think Chinese tech employees don't also want remote work? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDzTKI9a78k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDzTKI9a78k
- tharne 4y ago
  Exactly, folks like @senttoschool seem to think that somehow Chinese workers are okay with being treated like shit indefinitely - they aren't. Like anyone else, Chinese workers are going to push for better wages and working conditions. We've already seen this with wages in India for software devs.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    Wait, when did I say Silicon Valley folks should work 996? I just said they should return to office if/when their employer mandates it. You think this is "being pushed around like peasants" and working 996. Come on man. It's the damn office. You know. The place everyone worked from as recent as 2020? People in China are working 996. People here are still "working" from home and refusing to come back to the office. A lot of spoiled workers here. Hopefully a recession will wake them up soon. I loved it when Elon said everyone back in the office or quit. Apple won't say this because they don't want any bad PR but they should.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      You implied that Chinese tech workers work harder than their Silicon Valley equivalents. And that is true, because 996 culture is widespread there. But 996 is also receiving backlash, and in time they will reach convergence with the work conditions of American workers. And when they call for remote work as well, will you call them "spoiled" too? (Not to mention, with the zero-COVID policies there, there are probably plenty of Chinese tech workers working remotely.) Calling acceptance of remote work "spoiled" is being ignorant of history. Just a few years ago, this extent of remote was unthinkable in tech. Companies would rather spend lavishly on slick hip offices with foosball tables no one played, on beer kegs that weren't exactly professional, to entice employees to work on-site, in open offices. Open offices are a near-universal bane of the industry and there was no check against management from adopting them. This past two years of remote was an unexpected windfall. And you call employees spoiled for finally getting a chance to escape the commute, away from open offices? Fine. That's your value system and you may live by it. Don't expect most people to agree. As for Musk, the anti-remote tempest in a teapot was clearly another one of his acts of social media sleights-of-hand. Tesla was planning layoffs, and encouraging employees to quit because of the sideshow of remote vs. onsite was a convenient way to avoid paying termination benefits. Congrats on falling for the gambit.