8 ms·

IMO there is still a lot of untapped potential in the south eastern German states Saxonia (the state where Dresden is located) and Thuringia. Both states histo

by jansan 4y ago

IMO there is still a lot of untapped potential in the south eastern German states Saxonia (the state where Dresden is located) and Thuringia. Both states historically had gread, very advanced industries and craftsmanship, which suffered a lot during socialist times. There are still great people, but it obviously takes a long time to catch up once the whole industry lost its competitiveness due to a failed political system.

blueflow 4y ago
> which suffered a lot during socialist times The other way around, they were doing great (Robotron, Wismut, Pentacon) until the reunification. Socialism somehow kept them alive.
- zatarc 4y ago
  No. Before WW2 "Mitteldeutschland" was an big and serious industrial center.
  - ahartmetz 4y ago
    AFAIK it has always been relatively weak economically - consider that heavy industry used to be a big deal economically, and heavy industry was in the West. But the region did have some high tech industries such as aircraft, optical, electronics. Semiconductors are in that line of tradition.
    - jansan 4y ago
      There also was automotive industry. Audi is originally from Zwickau. There was a BMW factory in Eisenach. Jena was a stronghold for optics and glass industry (luckily still is to a certain degree).
- AreYouSirius 4y ago
  They were doing great, YES, but that means if there were no Russian influence, they would have industry on par with Taiwan, now.
- analognoise 4y ago
  I thought they were "kept alive" because they weren't competing with Western devices; once the wall fell it was pretty clear how far behind they were, and they were quickly bought/dismantled as they weren't competitive. I couldn't find any good details/stories about them though, or the industry during that time. I wonder if someone will chime in with a good source, it sounds like an interesting time to read about.
  - cryo 4y ago
    You may look up the already mentioned Robotron, or Messelektronik. Further Zentrallaboratorium für Rundfunk- und Fernsehempfangstechnik (ZRF). The history of Manfred von Ardenne is interesting as well (first electronic television 1931, but also helping sowjet a-bomb).
  - flohofwoe 4y ago
    There are many interesting stories just floating under the surface, but the gist is that the GDR industry was actually quite competitive for singular projects right after WW2, but then fell behind in the 60's and 70's (but again with very few exceptions where the GDR remained somewhat competitive, like mechanical engineering). For instance the first German jet airliner was being developed (but eventually cancelled) in Dresden by former Junkers engineers returning from Soviet 'captivity' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152) - for background see the Soviet version of 'Operation Paperclip': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim Or the Trabant actually being a very innovative car when it first appeared: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant Later on it became hard to separate facts from propaganda. Apparently the MKF-6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKF-6_(multispectral_camera) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKF-6_(multispectral_camera)) was innovative, but according to GDR propaganda it was of course superior to anything else in the world ;) The East German chip manufacturing industry also was actually quite impressive for its time, even though it was 5..10 years behind the state of the art, but at least there was a domestic chip manufacturing industry.
- tb0ne 4y ago
  Wow, this the most incorrect statement I have read all week. I am from this area, and Saxony before the GDR was of the most prosperous regions of Germany. If you are not convinced by the pomposity the former kingdom amassed in treasures and architecture, you can check the historical GDP per capita figures of the region [1]. Saxony historically was the number one state in terms of economic power behind the city states. But the economic and political horrors that the socialist dictatorship brought, combined with the plundering done by Russia, completely turned this upside down. It is quite amazing how a few decades of bad leadership can bring a region to its knees. It is true, however, that a lot of potential is still left in Saxony, and by many measures (like quality of schooling) it is still one of Germany's best. [1] Page 11 on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282329316_Human_Capital_Investment_in_a_Late-Developing_Economy_Evidence_from_Wurttemberg_c_1600_-_c_1900_-_Working_Paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282329316_Human_Cap...
  - blueflow 4y ago
    Tone. If being from this area makes you more informed, then im more informed than you.
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  Most of the Saxon 'industrial base' either moved to Bavaria after WW2 or was looted by the Russians. The Wismut was a 'one hit wonder': after the Uranium deposits were depleted (which didn't take long) it tapered off like everything else in East Germany. The investment in microelectronics in the 70's might have been the only thing that went somewhat right and had a lasting effect even after the GDR imploded.
rurban 4y ago
We still have a great and advanced industry and craftsmanship.
xxpor 4y ago
The AfD support there is quite worrying.
- helge9210 4y ago
  AfD is not relevant anymore. They are openly pushing Russian economic interests now (Nord Stream 2, lifting sanctions) and so became a used asset.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    AfD is gaining support in Germany: https://pollytix.de/wahltrend/ https://pollytix.de/wahltrend/
    - ThePadawan 4y ago
      And to highlight, those are the national numbers (12% as of time of writing). The current numbers for Saxony are at 28% [0]. [0] https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/sachsen.htm https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/sachsen.htm
  - suction 4y ago
jupp0r 4y ago
On the other hand, there's also a deep suspicion towards foreigners and some of the most right-wing sentiments you will find anywhere in Germany. I literally witnessed some Indian-American colleagues of mine being physically assaulted because they had non-white skin color and were walking down the street. This in combination with the already existing labor shortages severely limit the region's potential. Source: I lived and worked in Dresden for a decade.
- lnsru 4y ago
  I double on this. Colleague from Philippines was spited on in Neustadt during normal walk in the evening. I had a car with foreign plates for a while and it was scratched on both sides. Coincidence? It was first and last time my car was intentionally scratched.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- tormeh 4y ago
  It's quite sad, but it is what it is. If you're not white you shouldn't stay there for long. Particularly not at night or whenever there's a football match. It's gotta be hard for such a place to compete with more cosmopolitan regions, particularly with Germany's demographics. If Dresden can't attract immigrants then its semiconductor industry will have to move elsewhere as ethnic Germans retire. EDIT: I don't mean to say you can't live there. It's not a war zone. But it's a rough place.
- eastendguy 4y ago
  This is big problem. Without (more) PoC living in this area, nothing improves. But would I recommend a PoC friend to live in Dresden? Not really, I would rather advise him to look for a job in Berlin or Frankfurt.
  - badpun 4y ago
    > Without (more) PoC living in this area, nothing improves. That's an interesting take. Why?
mschuster91 4y ago
The problem with Eastern Germany and Dresden in particular is that there is a solid 20-25% voter block for outright fascists, and the nominal "conservatives" and "free-market liberals" often enough aren't better at all - way over half the population is anything from hardcore Conservative to "would love to see politicians on gallows"-Nazi. On top of that Dresden has the only PEGIDA (bunch of Nazis that started protesting against refugees in 2014/15) group that is still running bi-weekly (the rest of 'em stopped over the years, with Munich's only collapsing due to Covid), which was already seen as a bad economic warn sign in 2016 [0], and the Eastern German states have the lowest vaccination rates by far. Eastern Germany has a lot of very nice places, but hell no I'd never ever move there, especially not if you're a foreigner. The risk of everyday violence against anything the far-right percieves as "immigrant" is just too high. [0] https://www.br.de/nachricht/pegida-schadet-dresden-100.html https://www.br.de/nachricht/pegida-schadet-dresden-100.html
- pvorb 4y ago
  Yep. I almost laughed when I read this sentence: > It is definitely not a punishment to live, work or study here. It might indeed be not a punishment if you're white, but you might be embarrassed about the political beliefs of your neighbors.
  - tucosan 4y ago
    Believe me, even as a white person I would consider living in Dresden a nightmare.
- jansan 4y ago
  I have been living in East Germany for the last 15 years. My wife is Bulgarian (is that "foreign" enough for you?) and she never had any issues with anybody being anti-immigrant or racist towards her.
  - martin_a 4y ago
    She's probably looking pretty normal/like a German, no problems then.
tucosan 4y ago
Even as a native German I find Saxony and Thuringia two of the most unattractive places in Germany. I would never ever consider to relocate - even if I would find great job opportunities (which don't really exists apart from a few exceptions). Why: Dresden, Rostock, Halle etc. are the most racist, culturally and intellectually backwards places in all of Germany. We call the area around Dresden "the valley of the clueless" for a reason.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Its "the valley of the clueless" because west TV could not be received for geographical reasons.
- ostenning 4y ago
  The 1992 Rostock attacks on the Vietnamese and Roma minorities - what an insane thing to happen. I’ve come to the conclusion that humanity doesn’t learn from its past.
  - badpun 4y ago
    That's just tip of the iceberg. There were 61 arsons targeted at immigrants in the past 6 years.
- ouija 4y ago
  You are overgeneralizing. The "valley of the clueless" referred to places like Dresden and Greifswald that were not able to receive broadcasts from West Germany and hence were somewhat more closed communities (also for other reasons). On the other hand there are places like Leipzig that didn't have this problem and as a historical center of commerce and trade always received guests from all over the world, even during GDR times. Saxony and Thuringia are not one homogeneous place, sentiments and opinions differ and so does the political situation.
- Helmut10001 4y ago
  I live in Dresden and I agree that there is are groups with pretty bad, conservative, racist or extreme views. But there are also other groups and I would say the 'other' groups are definitely the (largely silent) majority. Similar patterns exist also elsewhere: What are the 'Querdenker' (or Pegigda) in Dresden are the 'Gelbwesten' in France, the Brexit-voters in UK, the 'Unite the Right' In Virginia, Charlottesville, etc. Saying that you would never move to Saxony or Thuringia is a generalization and it doesn't help anyone.
blueflow 4y ago
I'm sad for all the hate this place gets in the sibling posts. I live here and its not that bad, but i also know that i can't just grab you from the internet and show you around the place and its non-hateful sides.
- lambdasquirrel 4y ago
  I don't know if you're POC or not, but for some of us, this is a personal safety issue and also, it just kind of sucks to feel under siege in society all the time. To be sure, I have lived in places in the rural U.S., and not all of them are bad. There are places where the folks seem to vote for a hateful candidate, but when you meet them, it's actually not what it chalked up to be. And then there are other places. It's not as simple as rural vs. urban either. I would rather live in parts of rural California than in most East Coast cities. When I'm in a place full of a hateful side, I will know it, and I will generally avoid returning except on occasion. Also, at some point in your life you will get older. You own't want to deal with that anymore. Anyone thinking otherwise is kidding themselves. It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. When you're young and feeling indestructible, cool. One day that will end. Maybe it will be the passing of a relative, or welcoming someone to the family. The day will come when your priorities change. In all, it's not our jobs to spend our lives being the canary in the coal mine. There's this idea of individualism in the West, yes? We need to go where we can grow, or at the least be safe to try.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    >It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. German and European descendants have essentially nothing to do with this phenomenon. In fact, white elders were the primary targets of brutal rapes, assaults, murders, and home invasions by the same POC criminal groups before the US had a large Asian population. Such violence on the streets and in schools was the primary cause for white flight to the suburbs are rural areas. It was a series of decisions made from the exact perspective you’re describing. This view is generally not taught in US schools but is extensively documented in primary sources, such as “Left Behind in Rosedale:” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_Rosedale# https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_R... And “Common Ground,” a book about the result of forced busing imposed on communities at literal gunpoint: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) European descendants remain victims in ~90% of interracial crime between these two groups today. Similar number for Asians, similar lack of media attention paid. Bet you never heard of the gang assault and murder of Ee Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee

by jansan 4y ago

blueflow 4y ago

> which suffered a lot during socialist times The other way around, they were doing great (Robotron, Wismut, Pentacon) until the reunification. Socialism somehow kept them alive.

zatarc 4y ago
No. Before WW2 "Mitteldeutschland" was an big and serious industrial center.
- ahartmetz 4y ago
  AFAIK it has always been relatively weak economically - consider that heavy industry used to be a big deal economically, and heavy industry was in the West. But the region did have some high tech industries such as aircraft, optical, electronics. Semiconductors are in that line of tradition.
  - jansan 4y ago
    There also was automotive industry. Audi is originally from Zwickau. There was a BMW factory in Eisenach. Jena was a stronghold for optics and glass industry (luckily still is to a certain degree).
AreYouSirius 4y ago
They were doing great, YES, but that means if there were no Russian influence, they would have industry on par with Taiwan, now.
analognoise 4y ago
I thought they were "kept alive" because they weren't competing with Western devices; once the wall fell it was pretty clear how far behind they were, and they were quickly bought/dismantled as they weren't competitive. I couldn't find any good details/stories about them though, or the industry during that time. I wonder if someone will chime in with a good source, it sounds like an interesting time to read about.
- cryo 4y ago
  You may look up the already mentioned Robotron, or Messelektronik. Further Zentrallaboratorium für Rundfunk- und Fernsehempfangstechnik (ZRF). The history of Manfred von Ardenne is interesting as well (first electronic television 1931, but also helping sowjet a-bomb).
- flohofwoe 4y ago
  There are many interesting stories just floating under the surface, but the gist is that the GDR industry was actually quite competitive for singular projects right after WW2, but then fell behind in the 60's and 70's (but again with very few exceptions where the GDR remained somewhat competitive, like mechanical engineering). For instance the first German jet airliner was being developed (but eventually cancelled) in Dresden by former Junkers engineers returning from Soviet 'captivity' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baade_152) - for background see the Soviet version of 'Operation Paperclip': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim Or the Trabant actually being a very innovative car when it first appeared: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant Later on it became hard to separate facts from propaganda. Apparently the MKF-6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKF-6_(multispectral_camera) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKF-6_(multispectral_camera)) was innovative, but according to GDR propaganda it was of course superior to anything else in the world ;) The East German chip manufacturing industry also was actually quite impressive for its time, even though it was 5..10 years behind the state of the art, but at least there was a domestic chip manufacturing industry.
tb0ne 4y ago
Wow, this the most incorrect statement I have read all week. I am from this area, and Saxony before the GDR was of the most prosperous regions of Germany. If you are not convinced by the pomposity the former kingdom amassed in treasures and architecture, you can check the historical GDP per capita figures of the region [1]. Saxony historically was the number one state in terms of economic power behind the city states. But the economic and political horrors that the socialist dictatorship brought, combined with the plundering done by Russia, completely turned this upside down. It is quite amazing how a few decades of bad leadership can bring a region to its knees. It is true, however, that a lot of potential is still left in Saxony, and by many measures (like quality of schooling) it is still one of Germany's best. [1] Page 11 on https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282329316_Human_Capital_Investment_in_a_Late-Developing_Economy_Evidence_from_Wurttemberg_c_1600_-_c_1900_-_Working_Paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282329316_Human_Cap...
- blueflow 4y ago
  Tone. If being from this area makes you more informed, then im more informed than you.
flohofwoe 4y ago
Most of the Saxon 'industrial base' either moved to Bavaria after WW2 or was looted by the Russians. The Wismut was a 'one hit wonder': after the Uranium deposits were depleted (which didn't take long) it tapered off like everything else in East Germany. The investment in microelectronics in the 70's might have been the only thing that went somewhat right and had a lasting effect even after the GDR imploded.

rurban 4y ago

We still have a great and advanced industry and craftsmanship.

xxpor 4y ago

The AfD support there is quite worrying.

helge9210 4y ago
AfD is not relevant anymore. They are openly pushing Russian economic interests now (Nord Stream 2, lifting sanctions) and so became a used asset.
- adrianN 4y ago
  AfD is gaining support in Germany: https://pollytix.de/wahltrend/ https://pollytix.de/wahltrend/
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    And to highlight, those are the national numbers (12% as of time of writing). The current numbers for Saxony are at 28% [0]. [0] https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/sachsen.htm https://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/sachsen.htm
- suction 4y ago

jupp0r 4y ago

On the other hand, there's also a deep suspicion towards foreigners and some of the most right-wing sentiments you will find anywhere in Germany. I literally witnessed some Indian-American colleagues of mine being physically assaulted because they had non-white skin color and were walking down the street. This in combination with the already existing labor shortages severely limit the region's potential. Source: I lived and worked in Dresden for a decade.

lnsru 4y ago
I double on this. Colleague from Philippines was spited on in Neustadt during normal walk in the evening. I had a car with foreign plates for a while and it was scratched on both sides. Coincidence? It was first and last time my car was intentionally scratched.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
tormeh 4y ago
It's quite sad, but it is what it is. If you're not white you shouldn't stay there for long. Particularly not at night or whenever there's a football match. It's gotta be hard for such a place to compete with more cosmopolitan regions, particularly with Germany's demographics. If Dresden can't attract immigrants then its semiconductor industry will have to move elsewhere as ethnic Germans retire. EDIT: I don't mean to say you can't live there. It's not a war zone. But it's a rough place.
eastendguy 4y ago
This is big problem. Without (more) PoC living in this area, nothing improves. But would I recommend a PoC friend to live in Dresden? Not really, I would rather advise him to look for a job in Berlin or Frankfurt.
- badpun 4y ago
  > Without (more) PoC living in this area, nothing improves. That's an interesting take. Why?

mschuster91 4y ago

The problem with Eastern Germany and Dresden in particular is that there is a solid 20-25% voter block for outright fascists, and the nominal "conservatives" and "free-market liberals" often enough aren't better at all - way over half the population is anything from hardcore Conservative to "would love to see politicians on gallows"-Nazi. On top of that Dresden has the only PEGIDA (bunch of Nazis that started protesting against refugees in 2014/15) group that is still running bi-weekly (the rest of 'em stopped over the years, with Munich's only collapsing due to Covid), which was already seen as a bad economic warn sign in 2016 [0], and the Eastern German states have the lowest vaccination rates by far. Eastern Germany has a lot of very nice places, but hell no I'd never ever move there, especially not if you're a foreigner. The risk of everyday violence against anything the far-right percieves as "immigrant" is just too high. [0] https://www.br.de/nachricht/pegida-schadet-dresden-100.html https://www.br.de/nachricht/pegida-schadet-dresden-100.html

pvorb 4y ago
Yep. I almost laughed when I read this sentence: > It is definitely not a punishment to live, work or study here. It might indeed be not a punishment if you're white, but you might be embarrassed about the political beliefs of your neighbors.
- tucosan 4y ago
  Believe me, even as a white person I would consider living in Dresden a nightmare.
jansan 4y ago
I have been living in East Germany for the last 15 years. My wife is Bulgarian (is that "foreign" enough for you?) and she never had any issues with anybody being anti-immigrant or racist towards her.
- martin_a 4y ago
  She's probably looking pretty normal/like a German, no problems then.

tucosan 4y ago

Even as a native German I find Saxony and Thuringia two of the most unattractive places in Germany. I would never ever consider to relocate - even if I would find great job opportunities (which don't really exists apart from a few exceptions). Why: Dresden, Rostock, Halle etc. are the most racist, culturally and intellectually backwards places in all of Germany. We call the area around Dresden "the valley of the clueless" for a reason.

blueflow 4y ago
Its "the valley of the clueless" because west TV could not be received for geographical reasons.
ostenning 4y ago
The 1992 Rostock attacks on the Vietnamese and Roma minorities - what an insane thing to happen. I’ve come to the conclusion that humanity doesn’t learn from its past.
- badpun 4y ago
  That's just tip of the iceberg. There were 61 arsons targeted at immigrants in the past 6 years.
ouija 4y ago
You are overgeneralizing. The "valley of the clueless" referred to places like Dresden and Greifswald that were not able to receive broadcasts from West Germany and hence were somewhat more closed communities (also for other reasons). On the other hand there are places like Leipzig that didn't have this problem and as a historical center of commerce and trade always received guests from all over the world, even during GDR times. Saxony and Thuringia are not one homogeneous place, sentiments and opinions differ and so does the political situation.
Helmut10001 4y ago
I live in Dresden and I agree that there is are groups with pretty bad, conservative, racist or extreme views. But there are also other groups and I would say the 'other' groups are definitely the (largely silent) majority. Similar patterns exist also elsewhere: What are the 'Querdenker' (or Pegigda) in Dresden are the 'Gelbwesten' in France, the Brexit-voters in UK, the 'Unite the Right' In Virginia, Charlottesville, etc. Saying that you would never move to Saxony or Thuringia is a generalization and it doesn't help anyone.

blueflow 4y ago

I'm sad for all the hate this place gets in the sibling posts. I live here and its not that bad, but i also know that i can't just grab you from the internet and show you around the place and its non-hateful sides.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago
I don't know if you're POC or not, but for some of us, this is a personal safety issue and also, it just kind of sucks to feel under siege in society all the time. To be sure, I have lived in places in the rural U.S., and not all of them are bad. There are places where the folks seem to vote for a hateful candidate, but when you meet them, it's actually not what it chalked up to be. And then there are other places. It's not as simple as rural vs. urban either. I would rather live in parts of rural California than in most East Coast cities. When I'm in a place full of a hateful side, I will know it, and I will generally avoid returning except on occasion. Also, at some point in your life you will get older. You own't want to deal with that anymore. Anyone thinking otherwise is kidding themselves. It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. When you're young and feeling indestructible, cool. One day that will end. Maybe it will be the passing of a relative, or welcoming someone to the family. The day will come when your priorities change. In all, it's not our jobs to spend our lives being the canary in the coal mine. There's this idea of individualism in the West, yes? We need to go where we can grow, or at the least be safe to try.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  >It'll be fun and games until you're the elderly Asian person whose skull has been bashed in. German and European descendants have essentially nothing to do with this phenomenon. In fact, white elders were the primary targets of brutal rapes, assaults, murders, and home invasions by the same POC criminal groups before the US had a large Asian population. Such violence on the streets and in schools was the primary cause for white flight to the suburbs are rural areas. It was a series of decisions made from the exact perspective you’re describing. This view is generally not taught in US schools but is extensively documented in primary sources, such as “Left Behind in Rosedale:” https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_Rosedale# https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2056992.Left_Behind_In_R... And “Common Ground,” a book about the result of forced busing imposed on communities at literal gunpoint: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Ground_(Lukas_book) European descendants remain victims in ~90% of interracial crime between these two groups today. Similar number for Asians, similar lack of media attention paid. Bet you never heard of the gang assault and murder of Ee Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Ee_Lee