5 ms·

Group of Apple employees pushes back against return-to-office order

14 points by mgh2 4y ago

_aavaa_ 4y ago
https://archive.ph/ts8Rp https://archive.ph/ts8Rp
Melting_Harps 4y ago
As they should, propping up commercial real estate (and by extension housing) isn't in anyone's interests besides the investment class who pushed out the small businesses during COVID closures for failure to make payments. They saw massive spikes in value on their holdings and overall portfolio but now that the interest rate hikes have cooled the housing and real estate market a bit they want to justify these inflated costs by forcing people back into the office instead of seeing sensible price corrections. Personally speaking, and with Adam Neumann's new move and VC funded warchest, I'm convinced the real estate market will sooner self-cannibalize itself instead of correcting to a pre-2008 bubble mania and they are throwing anything they can to prop it back up by forcing back in office and making them re-inflate all the surrounding housing options. The truth is that after the layoffs they cannot spare losing more talent, so calling their bluff is really more a calculated risk and the worst case scenario is taking a few more offers via Linkden more serious this time around. If they and the entire tech Industry stand their ground then we might have a chance at making it a norm because right now it's still incredibly shaky, and the truth is that it's foolish to even explore given how much unnecessary GHG is produced from commuting.
illuminerdy 4y ago
I can't read the article because paywall, but I did see one group of Apple employees saying that forcing them come back to the office, even part-time was somehow anti-diversity. They'll say anything to get what they feel they deserve. It's amazing how entitled some people are.
- tharne 4y ago
  > It's amazing how entitled some people are. How are they entitled? Employment is a business deal. Apple has something the employees want, money, and the employees have something Apple wants, their labor and know-how. These folks have other options and both they and Apple know it. There's absolutely nothing entitled about using your talent to negotiate an employment situation that suits your lifestyle.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    >These folks have other options and both they and Apple know it. You can have the most talented folks in the world but if your working culture is not productive, it means nothing. Apple has decided that a return to office should increase productivity. It's likely that they've collected enough data to make this decision. Also, I'm sure Apple has calculated that some people will leave but they're ok with that. They probably want people to quit anyways so they don't have to pay layoff costs.
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Based on reports, Apple said nothing about a desire to "increase productivity", but as per Tim Cook, this move is to preserve the "in-person collaboration that is so essential to our culture."
      - senttoschool 4y ago
        That's a nice way of saying productivity. You think Apple would come out and say their productivity has decreased, therefore they need people to return to office? It'd be a huge PR nightmare.
        Apocryphon 4y ago
        Honestly, I think it's more of a polite way of saying that Apple is a very secrecy-focused organization and they are most comfortable having employees behind lockdown to minimize the possibility of leaks. Regardless of productivity.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  A $2.7T business dictating terms to labor isn’t entitlement? Without workers, Apple is a trademark and Wikipedia page. What’s a word where workplace dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome?
  - tharne 4y ago
    > What’s a word where dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome? I laughed so hard, I spit out my coffee reading this line.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > What’s a word where workplace dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome? The New American Dream? I saw someone was bragging about how quiet quitting wasn't a thing for them because they entered the workforce early enough to be able to lock themselves into a similar position via career, mortgage, furniture, family obligations etc... Quite frankly, it's incredibly dystopic to think of Life in those terms; I'm sad to say that for most that is what 'growing up' and 'making it' now.
  - illuminerdy 4y ago
    > A $2.7T business dictating terms to labor isn’t entitlement? Um...you mean the terms under which the labor originally agreed to work for? How would that be "dictating" when it was literally what they agreed to? Also, I don't know if you know this, but employers generally have the right to decide the basic terms of how their employees do their jobs. If the employees don't like how the employer wants them to do the job, they are not being held hostage. They can leave anytime.
tharne 4y ago
You have to be reasonably talented to work at Apple. turns out that talented people have other options and don't like being pushed around like a bunch of peasants. Who've a thunk it?
- senttoschool 4y ago
  Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Ok. Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years.
  - tharne 4y ago
    > Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job *is* being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. > Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years. Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. More likely, we're going to end up with multiple distinct internets and computing ecosystems in the future. Whether this is good or bad, who knows. Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief.
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      >Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.

14 points by mgh2 4y ago

https://archive.ph/ts8Rp https://archive.ph/ts8Rp

As they should, propping up commercial real estate (and by extension housing) isn't in anyone's interests besides the investment class who pushed out the small businesses during COVID closures for failure to make payments. They saw massive spikes in value on their holdings and overall portfolio but now that the interest rate hikes have cooled the housing and real estate market a bit they want to justify these inflated costs by forcing people back into the office instead of seeing sensible price corrections. Personally speaking, and with Adam Neumann's new move and VC funded warchest, I'm convinced the real estate market will sooner self-cannibalize itself instead of correcting to a pre-2008 bubble mania and they are throwing anything they can to prop it back up by forcing back in office and making them re-inflate all the surrounding housing options. The truth is that after the layoffs they cannot spare losing more talent, so calling their bluff is really more a calculated risk and the worst case scenario is taking a few more offers via Linkden more serious this time around. If they and the entire tech Industry stand their ground then we might have a chance at making it a norm because right now it's still incredibly shaky, and the truth is that it's foolish to even explore given how much unnecessary GHG is produced from commuting.

illuminerdy 4y ago

I can't read the article because paywall, but I did see one group of Apple employees saying that forcing them come back to the office, even part-time was somehow anti-diversity. They'll say anything to get what they feel they deserve. It's amazing how entitled some people are.

tharne 4y ago
> It's amazing how entitled some people are. How are they entitled? Employment is a business deal. Apple has something the employees want, money, and the employees have something Apple wants, their labor and know-how. These folks have other options and both they and Apple know it. There's absolutely nothing entitled about using your talent to negotiate an employment situation that suits your lifestyle.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  >These folks have other options and both they and Apple know it. You can have the most talented folks in the world but if your working culture is not productive, it means nothing. Apple has decided that a return to office should increase productivity. It's likely that they've collected enough data to make this decision. Also, I'm sure Apple has calculated that some people will leave but they're ok with that. They probably want people to quit anyways so they don't have to pay layoff costs.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Based on reports, Apple said nothing about a desire to "increase productivity", but as per Tim Cook, this move is to preserve the "in-person collaboration that is so essential to our culture."
    - senttoschool 4y ago
      That's a nice way of saying productivity. You think Apple would come out and say their productivity has decreased, therefore they need people to return to office? It'd be a huge PR nightmare.
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        Honestly, I think it's more of a polite way of saying that Apple is a very secrecy-focused organization and they are most comfortable having employees behind lockdown to minimize the possibility of leaks. Regardless of productivity.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
A $2.7T business dictating terms to labor isn’t entitlement? Without workers, Apple is a trademark and Wikipedia page. What’s a word where workplace dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome?
- tharne 4y ago
  > What’s a word where dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome? I laughed so hard, I spit out my coffee reading this line.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > What’s a word where workplace dystopia meets Stockholm Syndrome? The New American Dream? I saw someone was bragging about how quiet quitting wasn't a thing for them because they entered the workforce early enough to be able to lock themselves into a similar position via career, mortgage, furniture, family obligations etc... Quite frankly, it's incredibly dystopic to think of Life in those terms; I'm sad to say that for most that is what 'growing up' and 'making it' now.
- illuminerdy 4y ago
  > A $2.7T business dictating terms to labor isn’t entitlement? Um...you mean the terms under which the labor originally agreed to work for? How would that be "dictating" when it was literally what they agreed to? Also, I don't know if you know this, but employers generally have the right to decide the basic terms of how their employees do their jobs. If the employees don't like how the employer wants them to do the job, they are not being held hostage. They can leave anytime.

tharne 4y ago

You have to be reasonably talented to work at Apple. turns out that talented people have other options and don't like being pushed around like a bunch of peasants. Who've a thunk it?

senttoschool 4y ago
Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Ok. Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years.
- tharne 4y ago
  > Working in an office is now considered as "being pushed around like a bunch of peasants". Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job *is* being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. > Keep being so entitled and watch Shenzen surpass Silicon Valley within 5 years. Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. More likely, we're going to end up with multiple distinct internets and computing ecosystems in the future. Whether this is good or bad, who knows. Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief.
  - senttoschool 4y ago
    >Having to be in a particular location for a set number of hours per day because someone else says so, when it has exactly zero to do with your effectiveness on the job is being pushed around like a peasant, yes. It's someone trying to exert power over you for no other reason than the fact that they can. Oh dear. I've written extensively on how American workers should advocate for a return to office. It's in the best interest of the workers long-term. Back to Apple. Clearly Apple execs have data that productivity/creativity/whatever they measure on has decreased. Thus, they want people back in the office. But let's have a random arm-chair HN poster tell Tim Cook how to run Apple. >Except that Biden has kept most of Trump's trade policies toward China in place, and even tightened others (chip making). Thankfully, a healthy distrust of the Chinese has become a rare point of bipartisan agreement in the U.S. I think you're trying to say that America is actively trying to sabotage China's tech industry, right? Maybe in hardware, though China has just launched their homegrown 7nm tech. But in software, China is pretty close. I think they'll surpass the US in software within the next 5 years. By surpassing, I mean new products from China will outcompete new products from US. >Economics aside, I can't believe someone on HN is seriously making the argument that our labor policies should be more like China's. Good grief. Why not? Keep an open mind. Not everything in the USA is the greatest. Maybe we can learn a bit from Chinese businesses and how they operate. They're clearly winning in many industries and they're gaining on Silicon Valley in software fast. But you're simply exaggerating. All I've been trying to say is that remote work will lose to office work in the long run for both businesses and workers.