6 ms·

It's not the right thing if its prohibitively expensive and inaccessible. The right thing is doing it without the inflated costs and expensive leased equipment.

It's not the right thing if its prohibitively expensive and inaccessible. The right thing is doing it without the inflated costs and expensive leased equipment. The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. This is effectively malicious compliance.

saagarjha 4y ago
> The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs.
- fezfight 4y ago
  Since we've seen it done elsewhere, you'd need to probably show or at least explain where/how it can't be done for Apple.
- munk-a 4y ago
  I think it's a tall order to argue that worse performance is a necessary requirement of repairability and height and weight are constantly obsessed over but very few people I've met actually care about it (and a fair number like the Mac interface but would be happy to trade height for keyboard improvements).
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    The products we have today are the result not of what people say they want but what people actually buy.
    - jfghi 4y ago
      Id claim it’s the products bought without clear alternative choices or understanding in the disposability of the designs. When I bought a MacBook Air around 2012, I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace as every laptop I had owned prior had removable batteries. Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        > Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly. So I take it that you immediately returned the MacBook Air and bought something which did have removable batteries?
        bfdm 4y ago
        This is really not the gotcha you seem to think it is. One is unlikely to learn how difficult repairs on a given device are until deep into the ownership cycle and well past any return window.
        vel0city 4y ago
        The poster claimed to prefer thicker laptops with replaceable batteries. There were lots of thicker laptops out there with obviously replaceable batteries. If it was such a priority, there were plenty of options. People are acting like they didn't have a choice but to choose a laptop with a battery glued in. No, the poster chose that machine at the time. There were laptops on the market with replaceable batteries, it just wasn't really their priority as they claim. If it was their priority, you'd think they would have bothered checking. If I claim having a lot of RAM is important for my machine, and then I buy a laptop with 2GB, I can't really go about arguing I didn't have a choice but to buy the 2GB machine. I just didn't bother investigating the specs and figure out there are machines much more suited for my demands. There were teardown reviews of the MBA almost instantly when it came out. The knowledge was there, if it was a priority they could have easily known. I'm arguing it wasn't really a priority, I'm sure they were plenty satisfied with that device the day they bought it. They went and choose a machine without bothering to consider if the battery was user serviceable. They might say now it's a priority, but when they paid for the machine it clearly wasn't.
      - User23 4y ago
        > I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace Having seen a MacBook air, I’d be shocked if the battery weren’t remarkably difficult to replace. What was it about the almost paper thin form factor back than that lead you to believe you could just pop the battery out?
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      Let me FTFY: The products we have today are the result of what people actually buy from what is available, with the knowledge on hand.
      - userbinator 4y ago
        "knowledge", more like "marketing propaganda". Apple's popularity is largely due to its marketing power.
        desiarnezjr 4y ago
        Dozens of crappy computers sitting in my storage disagree. Lenovo Thinkpads (even back in the IBM days), Dell, HP, Acer, and on and on. I've used perhaps hundreds of computers in my life and possible evaluated thousands. Many were OK. Some were pretty good. A few were great. Apple's products aren't perfect, but they were "better" enough. Mind you, I don't worry about repairability as much as "Is this computer functional and useful to me?"
        fezfight 4y ago
        And yet every Apple product I've ever used was pretty below average and absolutely normal things like nice keyboards, and mice with useful buttons. Their laptops, for example, often lack absolutely fundamentally basic things like common ports. And there are no replaceable batteries! As far as I'm concerned, their stuff is half baked at best.
- jchw 4y ago
  That sounds like a picture perfect argument for industry-wide regulation. People don't want thicker phones, but if it must be done, then the market should compete to do it at the lowest overall cost.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Have you looked inside an iPhone? There’s barely any extra space at all for anything. Adding slots for people to take things apart, put in new commodity parts, and then seal the device up so it’s waterproof again are not zero-cost.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Sure, but mind you Apple's phones have gotten thicker over the past 5 years (as have their laptops), and that certainly hasn't impacted sales in any meaningful capacity. People don't really care, and I don't buy the arguement that it's impossible for Apple to design things to be more repair-friendly. Simple changes like socketing the battery or limiting OEM component DRM would make all the difference, but Apple actively fights against any changes that would threaten their authority over the iPhone and it's aftermarket profitability. Maybe there is a technical limitation here, but I'm not convinced the world's largest engineering team can't fix it with their 100 billion dollars in liquid R&D funding.
      - throwaway894345 4y ago
        Can you provide a source for "gotten thicker"? I'm looking at https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-comparison-chart/ https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-compa... and the iphone x (2017) was 7.7mm and the iphones 12 and 13 were both 7.3-7.4mm. Only the iPhone 11 increased thickness and even then only by a fraction of a millimeter.
    - _carbyau_ 4y ago
      Edit: Unwelcome comment deleted.
- p1necone 4y ago
  > A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs. This is not a statement you can just make with no evidence and expect people to take at face value. At least for laptops this is a myth. The Framework laptop has the same dimensions and weight as a Macbook air (give or take a few tenths of an inch on width/height but same thickness - I believe they kinda did this intentionally to call out Apple) and is fully repairable with individually replaceable parts. Many (most?) of the decisions that Apple make that make their systems less repairable are not things that meaningfully impact weight or size, it's just an excuse that they've been very successful in seeding in the minds of consumers.
- WhyNotHugo 4y ago
  A 2021 Macbook is barely thinner or lighter than a Frame.work laptop. The difference is negligible. And the latter is made to be super easy to open and self service.
kepler1 4y ago
No specialized equipment? So an iPhone / Mac has to be repairable with a consumer Phillips head screwdriver? Full size? Or is a T6 screw allowed? How about glue? Who is to make the call about what specialized equipment and level of expense is ok enough by you? If people are buying the phones for the features they offer and the way they're constructed, and they offer a repair path, what do you suggest we do now, to satisfy your criteria?
- pzo 4y ago
  For starter they could use 0.1mm thicker glue pads so that they won’t break so easy. If anyone tried to change battery on iPhone then knows how easy they are to break then you have to resort to using dental floss or fishing line as an improvised saw to remove the battery. Seriously there is enough space to make it just 0.1mm thicker
  - bradleybuda 4y ago
    You can buy that phone. I don't want to, I'll keep buying the one they sell.
    - andy_ppp 4y ago
      Exactly, they glue is that thick for a reason, they very carefully design everything to be a perfectly integrated device. If everyone got their 0.1mm we are looking at a phone that feels substantially thicker. Apple know better than random people on hacker news about what makes their phones sell, they don’t make them thinner for no reason.
  - kepler1 4y ago
    So, that's one part out of thousands. You're going to write up the 100 page list of all the considerations for how it has to be done, just for the iPhone? And that's going to be enacted into law/regulation?
    - munk-a 4y ago
krnlpnc 4y ago
I’ve taken apart various macs using screwdrivers, spudgers, and plastic pry tools. The most awkward was a plastic pizza cutter designed to cut the adhesive backing of the screen. It’s really not that hard, but very happy to see it getting easier.
Bud 4y ago
Nonsense. This isn't prohibitively expensive, as anyone who has googled it for 5 seconds knows, so why tell that kind of lie? And it's also obviously very very accessible.

saagarjha 4y ago

> The right thing is not building your product in such a way as to require specialised equipment in the first place. A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs.

fezfight 4y ago
Since we've seen it done elsewhere, you'd need to probably show or at least explain where/how it can't be done for Apple.
munk-a 4y ago
I think it's a tall order to argue that worse performance is a necessary requirement of repairability and height and weight are constantly obsessed over but very few people I've met actually care about it (and a fair number like the Mac interface but would be happy to trade height for keyboard improvements).
- andy_ppp 4y ago
  The products we have today are the result not of what people say they want but what people actually buy.
  - jfghi 4y ago
    Id claim it’s the products bought without clear alternative choices or understanding in the disposability of the designs. When I bought a MacBook Air around 2012, I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace as every laptop I had owned prior had removable batteries. Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      > Given the choice of a bigger computer with a replaceable battery/ram and probably better cooling, I’d choose that instantly. So I take it that you immediately returned the MacBook Air and bought something which did have removable batteries?
      - bfdm 4y ago
        This is really not the gotcha you seem to think it is. One is unlikely to learn how difficult repairs on a given device are until deep into the ownership cycle and well past any return window.
        vel0city 4y ago
        The poster claimed to prefer thicker laptops with replaceable batteries. There were lots of thicker laptops out there with obviously replaceable batteries. If it was such a priority, there were plenty of options. People are acting like they didn't have a choice but to choose a laptop with a battery glued in. No, the poster chose that machine at the time. There were laptops on the market with replaceable batteries, it just wasn't really their priority as they claim. If it was their priority, you'd think they would have bothered checking. If I claim having a lot of RAM is important for my machine, and then I buy a laptop with 2GB, I can't really go about arguing I didn't have a choice but to buy the 2GB machine. I just didn't bother investigating the specs and figure out there are machines much more suited for my demands. There were teardown reviews of the MBA almost instantly when it came out. The knowledge was there, if it was a priority they could have easily known. I'm arguing it wasn't really a priority, I'm sure they were plenty satisfied with that device the day they bought it. They went and choose a machine without bothering to consider if the battery was user serviceable. They might say now it's a priority, but when they paid for the machine it clearly wasn't.
    - User23 4y ago
      > I didn’t expect the battery to be so remarkably difficult to replace Having seen a MacBook air, I’d be shocked if the battery weren’t remarkably difficult to replace. What was it about the almost paper thin form factor back than that lead you to believe you could just pop the battery out?
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Let me FTFY: The products we have today are the result of what people actually buy from what is available, with the knowledge on hand.
    - userbinator 4y ago
      "knowledge", more like "marketing propaganda". Apple's popularity is largely due to its marketing power.
      - desiarnezjr 4y ago
        Dozens of crappy computers sitting in my storage disagree. Lenovo Thinkpads (even back in the IBM days), Dell, HP, Acer, and on and on. I've used perhaps hundreds of computers in my life and possible evaluated thousands. Many were OK. Some were pretty good. A few were great. Apple's products aren't perfect, but they were "better" enough. Mind you, I don't worry about repairability as much as "Is this computer functional and useful to me?"
        fezfight 4y ago
        And yet every Apple product I've ever used was pretty below average and absolutely normal things like nice keyboards, and mice with useful buttons. Their laptops, for example, often lack absolutely fundamentally basic things like common ports. And there are no replaceable batteries! As far as I'm concerned, their stuff is half baked at best.
jchw 4y ago
That sounds like a picture perfect argument for industry-wide regulation. People don't want thicker phones, but if it must be done, then the market should compete to do it at the lowest overall cost.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Have you looked inside an iPhone? There’s barely any extra space at all for anything. Adding slots for people to take things apart, put in new commodity parts, and then seal the device up so it’s waterproof again are not zero-cost.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Sure, but mind you Apple's phones have gotten thicker over the past 5 years (as have their laptops), and that certainly hasn't impacted sales in any meaningful capacity. People don't really care, and I don't buy the arguement that it's impossible for Apple to design things to be more repair-friendly. Simple changes like socketing the battery or limiting OEM component DRM would make all the difference, but Apple actively fights against any changes that would threaten their authority over the iPhone and it's aftermarket profitability. Maybe there is a technical limitation here, but I'm not convinced the world's largest engineering team can't fix it with their 100 billion dollars in liquid R&D funding.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Can you provide a source for "gotten thicker"? I'm looking at https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-comparison-chart/ https://www.knowyourmobile.com/user-guides/iphone-size-compa... and the iphone x (2017) was 7.7mm and the iphones 12 and 13 were both 7.3-7.4mm. Only the iPhone 11 increased thickness and even then only by a fraction of a millimeter.
  - _carbyau_ 4y ago
    Edit: Unwelcome comment deleted.
p1necone 4y ago
> A product like this would not be popular because it would be thicker, heavier, and have worse specs. This is not a statement you can just make with no evidence and expect people to take at face value. At least for laptops this is a myth. The Framework laptop has the same dimensions and weight as a Macbook air (give or take a few tenths of an inch on width/height but same thickness - I believe they kinda did this intentionally to call out Apple) and is fully repairable with individually replaceable parts. Many (most?) of the decisions that Apple make that make their systems less repairable are not things that meaningfully impact weight or size, it's just an excuse that they've been very successful in seeding in the minds of consumers.
WhyNotHugo 4y ago
A 2021 Macbook is barely thinner or lighter than a Frame.work laptop. The difference is negligible. And the latter is made to be super easy to open and self service.

kepler1 4y ago

No specialized equipment? So an iPhone / Mac has to be repairable with a consumer Phillips head screwdriver? Full size? Or is a T6 screw allowed? How about glue? Who is to make the call about what specialized equipment and level of expense is ok enough by you? If people are buying the phones for the features they offer and the way they're constructed, and they offer a repair path, what do you suggest we do now, to satisfy your criteria?

pzo 4y ago
For starter they could use 0.1mm thicker glue pads so that they won’t break so easy. If anyone tried to change battery on iPhone then knows how easy they are to break then you have to resort to using dental floss or fishing line as an improvised saw to remove the battery. Seriously there is enough space to make it just 0.1mm thicker
- bradleybuda 4y ago
  You can buy that phone. I don't want to, I'll keep buying the one they sell.
  - andy_ppp 4y ago
    Exactly, they glue is that thick for a reason, they very carefully design everything to be a perfectly integrated device. If everyone got their 0.1mm we are looking at a phone that feels substantially thicker. Apple know better than random people on hacker news about what makes their phones sell, they don’t make them thinner for no reason.
- kepler1 4y ago
  So, that's one part out of thousands. You're going to write up the 100 page list of all the considerations for how it has to be done, just for the iPhone? And that's going to be enacted into law/regulation?
  - munk-a 4y ago

krnlpnc 4y ago

I’ve taken apart various macs using screwdrivers, spudgers, and plastic pry tools. The most awkward was a plastic pizza cutter designed to cut the adhesive backing of the screen. It’s really not that hard, but very happy to see it getting easier.

Bud 4y ago

Nonsense. This isn't prohibitively expensive, as anyone who has googled it for 5 seconds knows, so why tell that kind of lie? And it's also obviously very very accessible.