6 ms·

Ask HN: How does HN maintain high quality still?

18 points by funerr 4y ago

I was wondering recently how HN is a community (in 2022) yet still manages to be pretty much 100% spam free. Also, thanks for everyone participating.

jacquesm 4y ago
Lots of behind the scenes work by dang & Company, assisted by community members pointing out accounts, sites and comments that are or that seem problematic, assisted by a bunch of automation. Agreed that it works surprisingly well, especially given the scale.
- funerr 4y ago
  Is there an in depth explanation of it? I think other communities might also benefit from learning how to do so (assuming the information won't harm this community).
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    As would spammers, so no.
jschveibinz 4y ago
Other than the outstanding moderators, I think that there are a lot of contributors on here who appreciate the focus and don’t want to see another failed forum. I really enjoy this haven of good sense and intellectually stimulating content.
- bediger4000 4y ago
  It's entirely possible to appreciate the focus, and desperately want to not have the forum fail, yet still kind of undermine the whole thing. If I honestly held election denial opinions, for example, I could post in complete good faith and still cause chaos. That is: contributors motivations can be pure, their hearts can be pure, and they could still end up undermining the HN discourse. To the extent that HN maintains high quality, it's not the contributor's purity.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    That's the heart of 'eternal September' right there.
    - bediger4000 4y ago
      Sir, I was answering honestly and in good faith. I was pointing out a problem of logic in the comment to which I replied.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Yes, as was mine. Read it as: You have pointed out the heart of Eternal September.
    - soulofmischief 4y ago
      Right, obviously most post-first wave communities don't set out to destroy the work of their predecessors and hosts. It's more ignorant than malicious. And sometimes change is even good.
  - jschveibinz 4y ago
    This is a very good point. I should clarify that I meant that responsible contributors were helping to “watch” for inappropriate content and comments as opposed to posting “good” content. Your point stands on its own, as does the Eternal September comments below. Thanks.
user3939382 4y ago
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Bullshit. The HN mods get crapped on from all sides, which is typically an indication that you're doing ok.
  - bediger4000 4y ago
    I'll note that getting crapped on from all sides isn't always a good indicator. See: mainstream media since 2015 or so.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      'mainstream media' being crapped on is mostly from the extremist right. They see everything as having a left wing bias whereas all it means is that when you're at the North Pole everything else will be South of where you are.
      - prewett 4y ago
        I think US "mainstream media" does have a left bias, although not necessarily very strong. (Disclosure: I consider myself probably a slightly right of center, but definitely left of Fox) Personally, I consider "mainstream media" to be the following: NYT, WaPo, USA Today, WSJ, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, NPR, Fox. (You could argue Time, Newsweek, Reuters, but I haven't heard of anyone reading Time/Newsweek in years, and Reuters is more news for news orgs and not directly accessed by consumers). I think when people say "mainstream media is left" they mean politically. According to [1], all of that list is left except for WSJ (center) and Fox (right), so 80% of "mainstream media" is left. If you want to argue that people mean that more broadly, [2] gives mainly the same result, except that few become center-left. I would certainly not call anything on the right side of middle in either of those graphics mainstream besides WSJ and Fox. (And frankly, I think it's arguable whether those two are mainstream) So for the US, anyway, it does seem credible that "mainstream media" leans left. [1] https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart [2] https://adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/?utm_source=HomePage_StaticMBC_Image&utm_medium=OnWebSite_Link https://adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/?utm_source=HomePage_St...
mikewarot 4y ago
I think that many times, many of us have a post all typed up...then we reconsider how well it adds value to the conversation, and close the tab, thus not posting something of lower value, that we would normally be just fine posting elsewhere. That act of self-censorship (or just plain quality control) is a big part of it, in my opinion. I only actually post less than half of the time these days. I'd nuke this one too, but then I do want to make the point, so here goes.
- Jensson 4y ago
  I used to do that on a previous account, but after a while you stop caring about karma and just post stuff. Just need to get enough intuition to post things that on average gets upvotes, at that point downvotes no longer matters except as an indicator that someone didn't like what you posted.
- sleepymoose 4y ago
  I can look my Reddit comment history and know that this is truth. Ditto on your last comment as well. If not for this conversation, I don't think I would even admit to having a Reddit account around these parts.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Reddit seems to be mostly circle jerks to me, there is very little tolerance for two sided arguments. On HN two sides can exist in one thread since downvotes are restricted while upvotes are not, meaning that both sides can upvotes whatever they feel is good and therefore we get rich discussions.
- funerr 4y ago
  Yes, but it still doesn't explain bad actors.
  - mikewarot 4y ago
    If the signal to noise ratio is better, bad actors stick out more, and we're all not fatigued too much to deal with it.
fredley 4y ago
It doesn't-and doesn't need to-make money.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I don't see the link between making money and being spam free, can you please expand on this?
  - ht85 4y ago
    Monetized platforms tend to put a lot of focus on user "engagement" because that's generally where the money's at. Quantity over quality is usually more profitable.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I still don't follow. The question was about spam, not about advertising, or do I misunderstand you?
      - everybodyknows 4y ago
        Being downvoted discourages continued "engagement".
MerelyMortal 4y ago
There is spam, you just have to set showdead to "yes" in your settings and look at /newest. Most of the spam is worthless filler akin to a Youtube video showing how to install an adblocker. Sometimes it's the same quality that you might find in your email's spam folder.
skadamat 4y ago
TONS of good techniques for preventing voting rings. It's quite hard (ofc some aggressively self-promotional stuff still comes through)
nonameiguess 4y ago
There is pretty severe rate-limiting. I've never tried to figure out the exact rates, and it's possible they vary per-user based on some opaque historical factors, but whatever they are, they're low. Try to post 40 articles in a row and it won't let you. Combine that with the fact that new accounts can't submit anything, and that takes care of a lot of low-hanging fruit with respect to spam prevention. But it isn't 100% spam free. It's just free of the really obvious things usually plaguing blogs with no filters on comments offering Viagra and work-from-home MLM schemes. But a whole lot of content is submitted that pretends to be more or less objective analysis of some tech problem but is really a thinly-veiled ad for a service solving that problem, or criticism of something posted by a competitor. And CEOs/founders are constantly out there shilling for their own crap in comments as answers to user queries. That kind of thing tends to get downvoted and/or flagged quickly, but it's still there.
jbirer 4y ago
I have (and still am) part of many toxic communities where I get my dose of dopamine with various forms of trolling and indecent behavior. But I also crave intellectual discussion and learning, since I am passionate about programming and social science. I have witnessed the spiral of many communities into low-grade discussion, moderation abuse and eventual death, so I feel responsible for maintaining the quality and health of this forum. Many times I have misbehaved, I was given a gentle warning instead of a straight-up ban, which made me feel like the moderators care about the users, which led me to be less motivated about causing chaos. It's really similar to eating a burger vs. eating a nice home cooked meal with a salad, I go to 4chan when I crave the "burger" and I come here for the steak and salad.
endisneigh 4y ago
There’s plenty of spam, though it might not be seen as such.
actually_a_dog 4y ago
Compared to 10-12 years ago, I don't honestly believe it has the same high quality.
- Jensson 4y ago
  I remember there being a lot less political discussions back then, remember when every non programming thread had a guy referencing the site rules saying it should be removed? I think political discussions reduces the quality of the site, not because they aren't interesting but because it is so easy to farm karma in them that we now have many high karma accounts that aren't experts in some field.
  - everybodyknows 4y ago
    Promoting the site by cooperating with non-technical, highly political publications surely has consequences. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/the-lonely-work-of-moderating-hacker-news https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...
nus07 4y ago
HN is the last bastion of good reading on the internet not populated by ads . Please never ever have ads. I wish for a world where technology and the internet has not been taken over by ads. Thank you for all the great work you guys do.
barrysteve 4y ago
Because it is still tied to the original purpose of the site. Being an offshoot of ycombinator means the focus never shifts and it doesn't have to follow trends, it just is a place to talk about tech and tech startups. It doesn't have to update the ui to stay popular with young people, it doesn't need to have a crisis moment or pivot to a new idea. It can't be replaced by a tech alternative as it's not in competition with other forums for eyeballs and income. It's not really run like a business, I guess.
yoyopa 4y ago
it's good quality (relative to other sites) but there is a lot of arrogance to weed through.
entropicgravity 4y ago
I'll be dang'd if I know.
KingOfCoders 4y ago
For some time now I believe the austere UI and features (everything that is needed though) helps keep the high quality of the content.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

18 points by funerr 4y ago

I was wondering recently how HN is a community (in 2022) yet still manages to be pretty much 100% spam free. Also, thanks for everyone participating.

jacquesm 4y ago

Lots of behind the scenes work by dang & Company, assisted by community members pointing out accounts, sites and comments that are or that seem problematic, assisted by a bunch of automation. Agreed that it works surprisingly well, especially given the scale.

funerr 4y ago
Is there an in depth explanation of it? I think other communities might also benefit from learning how to do so (assuming the information won't harm this community).
- jacquesm 4y ago
  As would spammers, so no.

jschveibinz 4y ago

Other than the outstanding moderators, I think that there are a lot of contributors on here who appreciate the focus and don’t want to see another failed forum. I really enjoy this haven of good sense and intellectually stimulating content.

bediger4000 4y ago
It's entirely possible to appreciate the focus, and desperately want to not have the forum fail, yet still kind of undermine the whole thing. If I honestly held election denial opinions, for example, I could post in complete good faith and still cause chaos. That is: contributors motivations can be pure, their hearts can be pure, and they could still end up undermining the HN discourse. To the extent that HN maintains high quality, it's not the contributor's purity.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That's the heart of 'eternal September' right there.
  - bediger4000 4y ago
    Sir, I was answering honestly and in good faith. I was pointing out a problem of logic in the comment to which I replied.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Yes, as was mine. Read it as: You have pointed out the heart of Eternal September.
  - soulofmischief 4y ago
    Right, obviously most post-first wave communities don't set out to destroy the work of their predecessors and hosts. It's more ignorant than malicious. And sometimes change is even good.
- jschveibinz 4y ago
  This is a very good point. I should clarify that I meant that responsible contributors were helping to “watch” for inappropriate content and comments as opposed to posting “good” content. Your point stands on its own, as does the Eternal September comments below. Thanks.

user3939382 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago
Bullshit. The HN mods get crapped on from all sides, which is typically an indication that you're doing ok.
- bediger4000 4y ago
  I'll note that getting crapped on from all sides isn't always a good indicator. See: mainstream media since 2015 or so.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    'mainstream media' being crapped on is mostly from the extremist right. They see everything as having a left wing bias whereas all it means is that when you're at the North Pole everything else will be South of where you are.
    - prewett 4y ago
      I think US "mainstream media" does have a left bias, although not necessarily very strong. (Disclosure: I consider myself probably a slightly right of center, but definitely left of Fox) Personally, I consider "mainstream media" to be the following: NYT, WaPo, USA Today, WSJ, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, NPR, Fox. (You could argue Time, Newsweek, Reuters, but I haven't heard of anyone reading Time/Newsweek in years, and Reuters is more news for news orgs and not directly accessed by consumers). I think when people say "mainstream media is left" they mean politically. According to [1], all of that list is left except for WSJ (center) and Fox (right), so 80% of "mainstream media" is left. If you want to argue that people mean that more broadly, [2] gives mainly the same result, except that few become center-left. I would certainly not call anything on the right side of middle in either of those graphics mainstream besides WSJ and Fox. (And frankly, I think it's arguable whether those two are mainstream) So for the US, anyway, it does seem credible that "mainstream media" leans left. [1] https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart [2] https://adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/?utm_source=HomePage_StaticMBC_Image&utm_medium=OnWebSite_Link https://adfontesmedia.com/static-mbc/?utm_source=HomePage_St...

mikewarot 4y ago

I think that many times, many of us have a post all typed up...then we reconsider how well it adds value to the conversation, and close the tab, thus not posting something of lower value, that we would normally be just fine posting elsewhere. That act of self-censorship (or just plain quality control) is a big part of it, in my opinion. I only actually post less than half of the time these days. I'd nuke this one too, but then I do want to make the point, so here goes.

Jensson 4y ago
I used to do that on a previous account, but after a while you stop caring about karma and just post stuff. Just need to get enough intuition to post things that on average gets upvotes, at that point downvotes no longer matters except as an indicator that someone didn't like what you posted.
sleepymoose 4y ago
I can look my Reddit comment history and know that this is truth. Ditto on your last comment as well. If not for this conversation, I don't think I would even admit to having a Reddit account around these parts.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Reddit seems to be mostly circle jerks to me, there is very little tolerance for two sided arguments. On HN two sides can exist in one thread since downvotes are restricted while upvotes are not, meaning that both sides can upvotes whatever they feel is good and therefore we get rich discussions.
funerr 4y ago
Yes, but it still doesn't explain bad actors.
- mikewarot 4y ago
  If the signal to noise ratio is better, bad actors stick out more, and we're all not fatigued too much to deal with it.

fredley 4y ago

It doesn't-and doesn't need to-make money.

jacquesm 4y ago
I don't see the link between making money and being spam free, can you please expand on this?
- ht85 4y ago
  Monetized platforms tend to put a lot of focus on user "engagement" because that's generally where the money's at. Quantity over quality is usually more profitable.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I still don't follow. The question was about spam, not about advertising, or do I misunderstand you?
    - everybodyknows 4y ago
      Being downvoted discourages continued "engagement".

MerelyMortal 4y ago

There is spam, you just have to set showdead to "yes" in your settings and look at /newest. Most of the spam is worthless filler akin to a Youtube video showing how to install an adblocker. Sometimes it's the same quality that you might find in your email's spam folder.

skadamat 4y ago

TONS of good techniques for preventing voting rings. It's quite hard (ofc some aggressively self-promotional stuff still comes through)

nonameiguess 4y ago

There is pretty severe rate-limiting. I've never tried to figure out the exact rates, and it's possible they vary per-user based on some opaque historical factors, but whatever they are, they're low. Try to post 40 articles in a row and it won't let you. Combine that with the fact that new accounts can't submit anything, and that takes care of a lot of low-hanging fruit with respect to spam prevention. But it isn't 100% spam free. It's just free of the really obvious things usually plaguing blogs with no filters on comments offering Viagra and work-from-home MLM schemes. But a whole lot of content is submitted that pretends to be more or less objective analysis of some tech problem but is really a thinly-veiled ad for a service solving that problem, or criticism of something posted by a competitor. And CEOs/founders are constantly out there shilling for their own crap in comments as answers to user queries. That kind of thing tends to get downvoted and/or flagged quickly, but it's still there.

jbirer 4y ago

I have (and still am) part of many toxic communities where I get my dose of dopamine with various forms of trolling and indecent behavior. But I also crave intellectual discussion and learning, since I am passionate about programming and social science. I have witnessed the spiral of many communities into low-grade discussion, moderation abuse and eventual death, so I feel responsible for maintaining the quality and health of this forum. Many times I have misbehaved, I was given a gentle warning instead of a straight-up ban, which made me feel like the moderators care about the users, which led me to be less motivated about causing chaos. It's really similar to eating a burger vs. eating a nice home cooked meal with a salad, I go to 4chan when I crave the "burger" and I come here for the steak and salad.

endisneigh 4y ago

There’s plenty of spam, though it might not be seen as such.

actually_a_dog 4y ago

Compared to 10-12 years ago, I don't honestly believe it has the same high quality.

Jensson 4y ago
I remember there being a lot less political discussions back then, remember when every non programming thread had a guy referencing the site rules saying it should be removed? I think political discussions reduces the quality of the site, not because they aren't interesting but because it is so easy to farm karma in them that we now have many high karma accounts that aren't experts in some field.
- everybodyknows 4y ago
  Promoting the site by cooperating with non-technical, highly political publications surely has consequences. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/the-lonely-work-of-moderating-hacker-news https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th...

nus07 4y ago

HN is the last bastion of good reading on the internet not populated by ads . Please never ever have ads. I wish for a world where technology and the internet has not been taken over by ads. Thank you for all the great work you guys do.

barrysteve 4y ago

Because it is still tied to the original purpose of the site. Being an offshoot of ycombinator means the focus never shifts and it doesn't have to follow trends, it just is a place to talk about tech and tech startups. It doesn't have to update the ui to stay popular with young people, it doesn't need to have a crisis moment or pivot to a new idea. It can't be replaced by a tech alternative as it's not in competition with other forums for eyeballs and income. It's not really run like a business, I guess.

yoyopa 4y ago

it's good quality (relative to other sites) but there is a lot of arrogance to weed through.

entropicgravity 4y ago

I'll be dang'd if I know.

KingOfCoders 4y ago

For some time now I believe the austere UI and features (everything that is needed though) helps keep the high quality of the content.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]