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Alcohol is the most harmful drug out there[1] - worse than heroin, crack cocaine, and all the rest. It boggles my mind how common it is, while genuinely useful

Alcohol is the most harmful drug out there[1] - worse than heroin, crack cocaine, and all the rest. It boggles my mind how common it is, while genuinely useful drugs like psilocybin are still Schedule I and relegated to the shadows. [1]: https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0140-6736(10)61462-6 https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/s0140-6736(10)61462-6 https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png

atwood22 4y ago
That paper doesn't really say how they computed the scores of the different drugs. Without that information it's hard to say how accurate the scoring is.
- TakeBlaster16 4y ago
  I'll have to disagree with you. The first three pages explain the scoring criteria, and if you scroll down there is more detailed data. https://i.imgur.com/pjEj4sU.png https://i.imgur.com/pjEj4sU.png
  - atwood22 4y ago
    The authors list the scoring categories, but they don’t say how they came up with the categorical score for each drug.
throwcean 4y ago
What a nonsense.. there are millions of people drinking alcohol sporadically and are doing fine. I don't think there are that many people sporadically consuming crack and are doing fine. Now I guess you can define harmful in many ways and I didn't read the study and probably won't.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Alcohol is doing damage at scale vs crack which is doing damage to a much smaller set of individuals. See drunk driving deaths vs crack driving deaths.
  - throwcean 4y ago
    It is consumed at another scale, so it does more damage in total. That doesn't make alcohol more harmful as a drug.
    - throwaway5959 4y ago
      It does if you look at it overall vs per capita. If crack was consumed at the scale of alcohol, yeah that’d be a big problem, but I think that’s obvious.
- TakeBlaster16 4y ago
  Maybe you're right, maybe not. https://talbottcampus.com/crack-statistics/ https://talbottcampus.com/crack-statistics/ > And the National Drug Intelligence Center reports, “an estimated 6,222,000 U.S. residents aged 12 and older used crack at least once in their lifetime.” A lot of people have used crack, and a lot of those people do not fit the stereotypes about who uses or why. There are all kinds of people in this world, and we all live very different lives.
  - throwcean 4y ago
    > There are all kinds of people in this world, and we all live very different lives. I can agree with that and I certainly don't care what people do with their lives as long as they don't harm others. However there are people consuming a beer each evening for decades and they are totally fine.. I doubt that is possible with crack.
    - TakeBlaster16 4y ago
      If you're looking for people who use crack recreationally and also function fine in society, you'll find at least a few in kitchens.
      - dh2022 4y ago
        You are comparing people that used crack at least once in their lifetime with people who drink reasonable amounts of alcohol for decades. Then this comparison became basis for comparing effect of crack on people with the effect of alcohol in people. This is disingenuous.
        lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
        I'm not sure that's the comparison that's being made. At least the phrasing suggests they think it's more ongoing than "at least once". > If you're looking for people who use crack recreationally That seems to suggest something more similar to consuming "reasonable amounts" for an extended period. I personally don't know how common that would be (since I don't tend to hang around kitchens in restaurants) but it does sound rather different from "people that used crack at least once in their lifetime".
- rascul 4y ago
  > What a nonsense.. there are millions of people drinking alcohol sporadically and are doing fine. I don't think there are that many people sporadically consuming crack and are doing fine. I don't know any numbers, but I do know there are people who consume crack recreationally and are doing fine. It's hard to compare to alcohol though, since alcohol is much more readily available and easier to get for a large amount of the population.
- filoleg 4y ago
  Was about to say, I can see how one can try making a claim that alcohol is more harmful than cannabis l or even cocaine. But crack and especially heroin (fentanyl would go here as well)? That instantly made me lose any belief in credibility of that reply, sadly. Anyone who has seen what those drugs end up doing to literally everyone who starts using them, it's not even close. And that's despite the fact that heavy alcoholism absolutely can churn out some extremely awful scenarios where people turn into monsters. It's like hearing someone tell you with full-on seriousness that bicycles going at their typical speeds (15-20mph) colliding with pedestrians will cause more physical damage to pedestrians than a pickup truck going at its typical speed (45mph+).
- kodah 4y ago
  The correct phrasing is, "Alcohol is the worst drug to be addicted to". Slightly different from OP, it just removes morality from the issue. I definitely understand your apprehension to this idea, however, someone I know very intimately is an alcoholic. They've said this phrase to me before and it wasn't clear until they explained their position from their perspective: There is no other drug that is as socially accepted and harmfully addictive as alcohol. Keep in mind that you can die from alcohol withdrawals and even without dying you might wish you had. The same drug that can do that is stocked on shelves, easily accessible, advertised on TV, and passed out for free at times. Additionally, addiction to alcohol is cyclical. Many people drink out of anxiety, that anxiety is cured while drunk until the person begins to sober up. Then the alcohol fuels more anxiety which continues the cycle. This phrase isn't meant to discount the experience of other addicts but moreso to express the unique difficulty that alcoholics may experience in the world.
- janef0421 4y ago
  That's more to do with the legal and cultural status of cocaine than its chemical properties. Illicit drug users tend to have difficulties to begin with, and the legal and financial consequences of using illegal drugs tend to worsen them. Also, crack tends to be cheaper than freebase, so a specific comparison is also being confounded by socioeconomic disparity.
jotm 4y ago
Only because it's the most common tbf. If you could get heroin in any supermarket, that'd top the charts :D
- havblue 4y ago
  The "overall harm scores" y axis ranking is misleading as you can't tell at a glance whether it's harm to an individual or the overall public. I'll just supply the expected response: "I don't think it's misleading at all. If you just look at the bars they clearly show blah blah blah..."
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
boplicity 4y ago
> https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png This is what gets me about alcohol: You can completely avoid drinking it, and yet it causes more harm to others than it does to users. The negative cost of alcohol use on those who don't even drink it is a real issue that should be more commonly talked about and addressed.

atwood22 4y ago

That paper doesn't really say how they computed the scores of the different drugs. Without that information it's hard to say how accurate the scoring is.

TakeBlaster16 4y ago
I'll have to disagree with you. The first three pages explain the scoring criteria, and if you scroll down there is more detailed data. https://i.imgur.com/pjEj4sU.png https://i.imgur.com/pjEj4sU.png
- atwood22 4y ago
  The authors list the scoring categories, but they don’t say how they came up with the categorical score for each drug.

throwcean 4y ago

What a nonsense.. there are millions of people drinking alcohol sporadically and are doing fine. I don't think there are that many people sporadically consuming crack and are doing fine. Now I guess you can define harmful in many ways and I didn't read the study and probably won't.

throwaway5959 4y ago
Alcohol is doing damage at scale vs crack which is doing damage to a much smaller set of individuals. See drunk driving deaths vs crack driving deaths.
- throwcean 4y ago
  It is consumed at another scale, so it does more damage in total. That doesn't make alcohol more harmful as a drug.
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    It does if you look at it overall vs per capita. If crack was consumed at the scale of alcohol, yeah that’d be a big problem, but I think that’s obvious.
TakeBlaster16 4y ago
Maybe you're right, maybe not. https://talbottcampus.com/crack-statistics/ https://talbottcampus.com/crack-statistics/ > And the National Drug Intelligence Center reports, “an estimated 6,222,000 U.S. residents aged 12 and older used crack at least once in their lifetime.” A lot of people have used crack, and a lot of those people do not fit the stereotypes about who uses or why. There are all kinds of people in this world, and we all live very different lives.
- throwcean 4y ago
  > There are all kinds of people in this world, and we all live very different lives. I can agree with that and I certainly don't care what people do with their lives as long as they don't harm others. However there are people consuming a beer each evening for decades and they are totally fine.. I doubt that is possible with crack.
  - TakeBlaster16 4y ago
    If you're looking for people who use crack recreationally and also function fine in society, you'll find at least a few in kitchens.
    - dh2022 4y ago
      You are comparing people that used crack at least once in their lifetime with people who drink reasonable amounts of alcohol for decades. Then this comparison became basis for comparing effect of crack on people with the effect of alcohol in people. This is disingenuous.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
        I'm not sure that's the comparison that's being made. At least the phrasing suggests they think it's more ongoing than "at least once". > If you're looking for people who use crack recreationally That seems to suggest something more similar to consuming "reasonable amounts" for an extended period. I personally don't know how common that would be (since I don't tend to hang around kitchens in restaurants) but it does sound rather different from "people that used crack at least once in their lifetime".
rascul 4y ago
> What a nonsense.. there are millions of people drinking alcohol sporadically and are doing fine. I don't think there are that many people sporadically consuming crack and are doing fine. I don't know any numbers, but I do know there are people who consume crack recreationally and are doing fine. It's hard to compare to alcohol though, since alcohol is much more readily available and easier to get for a large amount of the population.
filoleg 4y ago
Was about to say, I can see how one can try making a claim that alcohol is more harmful than cannabis l or even cocaine. But crack and especially heroin (fentanyl would go here as well)? That instantly made me lose any belief in credibility of that reply, sadly. Anyone who has seen what those drugs end up doing to literally everyone who starts using them, it's not even close. And that's despite the fact that heavy alcoholism absolutely can churn out some extremely awful scenarios where people turn into monsters. It's like hearing someone tell you with full-on seriousness that bicycles going at their typical speeds (15-20mph) colliding with pedestrians will cause more physical damage to pedestrians than a pickup truck going at its typical speed (45mph+).
kodah 4y ago
The correct phrasing is, "Alcohol is the worst drug to be addicted to". Slightly different from OP, it just removes morality from the issue. I definitely understand your apprehension to this idea, however, someone I know very intimately is an alcoholic. They've said this phrase to me before and it wasn't clear until they explained their position from their perspective: There is no other drug that is as socially accepted and harmfully addictive as alcohol. Keep in mind that you can die from alcohol withdrawals and even without dying you might wish you had. The same drug that can do that is stocked on shelves, easily accessible, advertised on TV, and passed out for free at times. Additionally, addiction to alcohol is cyclical. Many people drink out of anxiety, that anxiety is cured while drunk until the person begins to sober up. Then the alcohol fuels more anxiety which continues the cycle. This phrase isn't meant to discount the experience of other addicts but moreso to express the unique difficulty that alcoholics may experience in the world.
janef0421 4y ago
That's more to do with the legal and cultural status of cocaine than its chemical properties. Illicit drug users tend to have difficulties to begin with, and the legal and financial consequences of using illegal drugs tend to worsen them. Also, crack tends to be cheaper than freebase, so a specific comparison is also being confounded by socioeconomic disparity.

jotm 4y ago

Only because it's the most common tbf. If you could get heroin in any supermarket, that'd top the charts :D

havblue 4y ago
The "overall harm scores" y axis ranking is misleading as you can't tell at a glance whether it's harm to an individual or the overall public. I'll just supply the expected response: "I don't think it's misleading at all. If you just look at the bars they clearly show blah blah blah..."

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

boplicity 4y ago

> https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png https://i.imgur.com/DQDJMGt.png This is what gets me about alcohol: You can completely avoid drinking it, and yet it causes more harm to others than it does to users. The negative cost of alcohol use on those who don't even drink it is a real issue that should be more commonly talked about and addressed.