6 ms·

I guess it seems to me that there are way more questions about those with > 80k. I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions, l

I guess it seems to me that there are way more questions about those with > 80k. I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions, like taking out massive loans to do things like not work, to attend over priced schools, to slack on school work and have to repeat school. I mean I worked full-time through school, raised a family and still managed to finish my BS in 18 months and MS in 12 more a few years later, mostly because I didn't want to end up in debt. It seems pretty messed up that I've been strenuously paying back student loans to avoid debt, and then the people that partied hearty during school get their loans forgiven because they make piss poor decisions.

lapcat 4y ago
> partied hearty during school This is a straw man.
- peteradio 4y ago
  Not necessarily, we don't have the stats in front of us. My anecdata matches this pretty well though.
pc86 4y ago
So the most important follow-up question to all of this is when did you do it? College costs have risen exponentially faster than just about everything other than healthcare, especially over the last 10-20 years. I graduated almost 15 years ago, and I am starting to think that anyone who graduated more than a few years ago simply cannot comprehend how bad it is to have to pay for school now. Average annual tuition at all 4-year institutions is just under $29k.[0] Real median HHI for the same year was $65k.[1] As a student you simply cannot work enough to pay for school anymore; it's not physically possible. So loans, grants, scholarships etc are a requirement. Completely unrelated to the math, the idea that everyone with a high loan balance is there because of "piss poor decisions" is not only insulting, but also idiotic. You need to have a pretty impressive lack of understanding about a half dozen or so topics to truly believe that. [0] https://www.ontocollege.com/average-college-tuition/ https://www.ontocollege.com/average-college-tuition/ [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  Finished my MS last year, finished my BS in 2018. So there's that, and you don't need to go to a fancy pants top of the line university. Plenty of ways to make things more affordable, like go to a community college for your associates then transfer to a full university. Maybe I do have an impressive lack of understanding of a dozen or so topics, but I grew up as the oldest of over 5 children to a single mother who was a school teacher, I spent most of my school time on free or reduced lunch, and was categorized statistically speaking as likely to end up low achieving. So sure there might be mitigating circumstances for some people, but I don't think that we can completely abscond with the idea of personal responsibility. Further the reason school costs have continued to rise is because the schools know everyone will get a loan for it because the government pumps a bunch of money into just this one sector through the loans, by forgiving loans you are incentivizing a continuation of school's increasing price because they face no consequences for it and will still receive the money they want. Finally if you aren't convinced by my account, I have a friend currently finishing his degree, he has spent his entire summer laying concrete in the hot sun for hours a day, busting his but to provide for his family and have enough money to finish his degree, so that is currently happening. To pretend that college can't be afforded without ridiculous loan is hokum.
  - pc86 4y ago
    The schools have already received money for this loans. Anything you do with them doesn't affect the school at all. It doesn't affect whether or not they got paid 10 years ago and it doesn't affect the loans that will be taken out over the next 10.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  >> I guess it seems to me that there are way more questions about those with > 80k. I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions, like taking out massive loans to do things like not work, to attend over priced schools, to slack on school work and have to repeat school. > So the most important follow-up question to all of this is when did you do it? College costs have risen exponentially faster than just about everything other than healthcare, especially over the last 10-20 years. The only kind of student debt forgiveness that I'd maybe support is the kind that allowed the debt to be discharged in a bankruptcy, then claw back the money from the school. That would create consequences that would incentivize positive changes. A money giveaway would just be a socialize-the-risk/privatize-the-gains perversion.
mountainriver 4y ago
I agree, I put off finishing school to work and not go into debt, I’m happy with that decision and it isn’t fair to retroactively change the rules
specialist 4y ago
Biden Admin just cancelled $3.9b debt of students attending ITT Tech school. What I gleaned from the news is ITT did a bunch shady stuff. Like steering students towards high interest rate loans and jacking up tuition prices. Reminds me of the subprime loan crisis. Insult to injury, ITT didn't actually teach students much. At least with the scammy mortgages, you sort of got a house. -- It seems to me the Biden Admin is doing triage, reviewing the student loans very deliberately, cancelling categories on a case-by-case basis. I have no dog in this fight and only a shallow understanding of the issue. I expect that Biden Admin continue to cancel and reduce the most egregious loans. And then provide some kind of relief to the remaining borrowers who are most pear shaped. -- Our society and government forgives debts all the time. Bankruptcy and bailouts. Crucial to keeping our economy healthy. I don't see why individual's debts, like student loans, should be treated any differently.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
MollyRealized 4y ago
> I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions That's a fairly flawed assumption.
- ryathal 4y ago
  Everything I've ever seen seems to back up that people with the most debt that aren't doctors did so due to bad decisions. In most cases some or all of the following are true: never got a degree, went to out of state or private school, took 5+ years to get a bachelors degree, or signed for as many loans as possible each semester.
  - lapcat 4y ago
    > went to out of state or private school Funny how going to the best school that you're talented enough to get admitted to is considered a bad decision. That's fine though, just don't try to tell me that society is a "meritocracy", as opposed to an aristocracy. The worst decision I ever made was being born to parents who couldn't afford to pay for an expensive education. I'll always regret that. When I was 18, I had to pass up the opportunity to go to an Ivy League school. I went to a state school instead. Some people might claim that was the "responsible" choice, but it wasn't even my choice, it was my parents' choice. I don't think I was directly eligible for loans at the time; if I was, I might have taken them.
lkrubner 4y ago
I’ve a dear friend who became a doctor. She had to take on $380,000 in debt to pay for school. Even with the good salary she has as a doctor, she will need many, many years to pay off the debt.

lapcat 4y ago

> partied hearty during school This is a straw man.

peteradio 4y ago
Not necessarily, we don't have the stats in front of us. My anecdata matches this pretty well though.

pc86 4y ago

So the most important follow-up question to all of this is when did you do it? College costs have risen exponentially faster than just about everything other than healthcare, especially over the last 10-20 years. I graduated almost 15 years ago, and I am starting to think that anyone who graduated more than a few years ago simply cannot comprehend how bad it is to have to pay for school now. Average annual tuition at all 4-year institutions is just under $29k.[0] Real median HHI for the same year was $65k.[1] As a student you simply cannot work enough to pay for school anymore; it's not physically possible. So loans, grants, scholarships etc are a requirement. Completely unrelated to the math, the idea that everyone with a high loan balance is there because of "piss poor decisions" is not only insulting, but also idiotic. You need to have a pretty impressive lack of understanding about a half dozen or so topics to truly believe that. [0] https://www.ontocollege.com/average-college-tuition/ https://www.ontocollege.com/average-college-tuition/ [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

buscoquadnary 4y ago
Finished my MS last year, finished my BS in 2018. So there's that, and you don't need to go to a fancy pants top of the line university. Plenty of ways to make things more affordable, like go to a community college for your associates then transfer to a full university. Maybe I do have an impressive lack of understanding of a dozen or so topics, but I grew up as the oldest of over 5 children to a single mother who was a school teacher, I spent most of my school time on free or reduced lunch, and was categorized statistically speaking as likely to end up low achieving. So sure there might be mitigating circumstances for some people, but I don't think that we can completely abscond with the idea of personal responsibility. Further the reason school costs have continued to rise is because the schools know everyone will get a loan for it because the government pumps a bunch of money into just this one sector through the loans, by forgiving loans you are incentivizing a continuation of school's increasing price because they face no consequences for it and will still receive the money they want. Finally if you aren't convinced by my account, I have a friend currently finishing his degree, he has spent his entire summer laying concrete in the hot sun for hours a day, busting his but to provide for his family and have enough money to finish his degree, so that is currently happening. To pretend that college can't be afforded without ridiculous loan is hokum.
- pc86 4y ago
  The schools have already received money for this loans. Anything you do with them doesn't affect the school at all. It doesn't affect whether or not they got paid 10 years ago and it doesn't affect the loans that will be taken out over the next 10.
tablespoon 4y ago
>> I guess it seems to me that there are way more questions about those with > 80k. I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions, like taking out massive loans to do things like not work, to attend over priced schools, to slack on school work and have to repeat school. > So the most important follow-up question to all of this is when did you do it? College costs have risen exponentially faster than just about everything other than healthcare, especially over the last 10-20 years. The only kind of student debt forgiveness that I'd maybe support is the kind that allowed the debt to be discharged in a bankruptcy, then claw back the money from the school. That would create consequences that would incentivize positive changes. A money giveaway would just be a socialize-the-risk/privatize-the-gains perversion.

mountainriver 4y ago

I agree, I put off finishing school to work and not go into debt, I’m happy with that decision and it isn’t fair to retroactively change the rules

specialist 4y ago

Biden Admin just cancelled $3.9b debt of students attending ITT Tech school. What I gleaned from the news is ITT did a bunch shady stuff. Like steering students towards high interest rate loans and jacking up tuition prices. Reminds me of the subprime loan crisis. Insult to injury, ITT didn't actually teach students much. At least with the scammy mortgages, you sort of got a house. -- It seems to me the Biden Admin is doing triage, reviewing the student loans very deliberately, cancelling categories on a case-by-case basis. I have no dog in this fight and only a shallow understanding of the issue. I expect that Biden Admin continue to cancel and reduce the most egregious loans. And then provide some kind of relief to the remaining borrowers who are most pear shaped. -- Our society and government forgives debts all the time. Bankruptcy and bailouts. Crucial to keeping our economy healthy. I don't see why individual's debts, like student loans, should be treated any differently.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

MollyRealized 4y ago

> I am going to assume they ended up that way because they made poor decisions That's a fairly flawed assumption.

ryathal 4y ago
Everything I've ever seen seems to back up that people with the most debt that aren't doctors did so due to bad decisions. In most cases some or all of the following are true: never got a degree, went to out of state or private school, took 5+ years to get a bachelors degree, or signed for as many loans as possible each semester.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > went to out of state or private school Funny how going to the best school that you're talented enough to get admitted to is considered a bad decision. That's fine though, just don't try to tell me that society is a "meritocracy", as opposed to an aristocracy. The worst decision I ever made was being born to parents who couldn't afford to pay for an expensive education. I'll always regret that. When I was 18, I had to pass up the opportunity to go to an Ivy League school. I went to a state school instead. Some people might claim that was the "responsible" choice, but it wasn't even my choice, it was my parents' choice. I don't think I was directly eligible for loans at the time; if I was, I might have taken them.

lkrubner 4y ago

I’ve a dear friend who became a doctor. She had to take on $380,000 in debt to pay for school. Even with the good salary she has as a doctor, she will need many, many years to pay off the debt.