7 ms·

Open Letter to Chancellor Linda P.B. Katehi (Chancellor of UC Davis)

122 points by lambada 15y ago

adnam 15y ago
Her apparent response: http://chancellor.ucdavis.edu/messages/2011/protest_action_111811.html http://chancellor.ucdavis.edu/messages/2011/protest_action_1...
- jfager 15y ago
  That is crazy Orwellian. "We have an obligation to your parents to keep you safe, so we're going to beat you with batons and shoot pepper spray down your throats".
  - inuhj 15y ago
    It's especially bizarre given that the majority of college students are 18+. What obligation do you have to the parents of a 20 year old? Your obligations are solely to your students.
    - hugh3 15y ago
      In theory, college students are adults. These kids, though, don't seem to be acting like it. They think they're playing a game.
      - dbingham 15y ago
        No, they don't. They are fully aware of what they are doing, the history behind it, and the possible consequences of their actions. They are doing it because it is the right thing to do. In a time such as this, where the only voice you are left with is protest, then protest is the right way to use your voice.
- _delirium 15y ago
  This is a pretty strange sentence: We are even more saddened by the events that subsequently transpired to facilitate their removal. The only sentence in the statement that seems to actually refer to the actions being criticized, and written in the most indirect/vague possible manner.
VMG 15y ago
Again, very interesting story, but off-topic: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. On reddit, I'd be in /r/politics.
- dbingham 15y ago
  You're right. Meanwhile, a story about Arrested Development being shown only on Netflix appears to be unquestionably on topic.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    Indeed it is. That's a tech story, of direct relevance to the core topic here, since it's an important milestone in the internet and entertainment industry. Netflix has never before exclusively acquired a show, particularly not a popular one, for streaming purposes. The story generated an interesting discussion about the future of these two industries. This story, on the other hand, is not just a political story but political activism, and needs to be nuked off the face of HN with extreme prejudice, because they're like weeds and have a tendency to take over. The distinction is that people submit and upvote stories like these not because they think they're intellectually interesting, but because they're trying to make something happen politically.
- DuncanIdaho 15y ago
  I find the comments within stories, that have nothing more to add than "This is Offtopic" way more distracting than the stories themselves, even if they are offtopic. So I see this story, it seems offtopic but intriguing nonetheless. I see there are comments, I click on comments. And what do I get? A gang of self righteous internet citizens informing me that I am not interested in this story and/or debate. Thank you very much, may I be in charge for a while? If you have a problem with story, go and flag it. Preferably just ignore it - it will go away on its own. But don't go around pointing it out. Else you might be caught off guard by the shitstorm of down votes that is going to hit you. Attitudes like this also belong on /r/whatever.
tmpacct123 15y ago
It's interesting that the letter doesn't raise objections about the way that police used the pepper spray guns. Presumably they are given guidance on how they are allowed to use them that does not include forcing it into a persons mouth and spraying it down their throat.
_delirium 15y ago
The overuse of chemical agents is really pretty strange. I can maybe see using them in extreme situations; if people are in the process of burning down a building by throwing molotov cocktails through the windows, dispersing them with tear gas might be the only real option. But using chemical agents on people sitting on a lawn seems like a pretty poor balancing of force versus danger/urgency. One question is whether this is primarily a matter of bad policy, or of bad training. Are police officers using pepper spray, for example, in situations that policy does not call for, due to some hotheads being angry at protestors? Or are they acting properly according to the policy, so it's the policy/superiors who are at fault?
- lambada 15y ago
  If you look at the next post on the blog, there is a video of, what looks to be the first, pepper spray usage. I hope that this usage wasn't condoned.
- hugh3 15y ago
  If you're in a situation where a police officer is entitled to arrest you, but he physically can't arrest you because you're sitting on the ground with your arms linked with somebody else, then the police officer is entitled to use reasonable force in order to arrest you. Pepper spray is the least dangerous way (to you) to do this -- all other possibilities run the risk of breaking your arms. I'm really sick of this game, though. The game where protestors deliberately work as hard as they possibly can in order to provoke a police response, and then whine about the police response. This is a game the police can't possibly win, and the protestors know it; that's why they play it. If the police don't respond, then the protestors will just escalate their douchiness until they do. I know this game, it's the game I used to play with my older brother. Harass him until he hits me, and then go whine to my parents. It was pretty douchey of me, but hey, I was a kid. These kids are supposed to be grown up, what's their excuse?
  - _delirium 15y ago
    > It's called being a complete cunt to your fellow human beings I can certainly agree that the policeman in question fits that description. But I'm sure he was "just following orders", which included the very urgent task of clearing some random sidewalk in a park. Although who is the bigger piece of shit depends in part on whether he was indeed ordered to do it, or was simply a poorly trained hothead acting without authorization (the police are sadly not empty of of power-hungry assholes who will use any excuse to "teach people a lesson", though I don't think such bad apples are quite as common as some people allege). Frankly, I'm sick of people such as yourself cheerleading violence against people you don't like, WWF-style, because you're fighting some sort of culture war against the imagined enemy of hippiedom, and feel that you can use any means necessary to fight it, including violent ones. That sort of playground bullshit is to be expected in kids, but you're grown up, so what's your excuse for not applying some rational analysis to the pros/cons of using violence? Actually, in the kid example, I blame the kid who punched there too. Poor impulse control isn't a justification for violence, and kids like that, if that behavior isn't fixed, often grow up to be violent adults who get "provoked" into fights, justifying it, just like the kid, by blaming someone else for "forcing" them to throw a punch in the bar.
hugh3 15y ago
Very very very very very very very flagged. Seriously, this got 76 upvotes? What do you think this is?
ivan_ah 15y ago
I though cops //theoretically// weren't allowed on campus? It seems that an exception to the rule is if the university calls them. Last week[1] students at my university (in Montreal), went into the Administration building and tried to occupy the offices of the principal. This is, apparently[2], something we have a tradition of doing every time someone tries to increase the tuition fees. Long story short, campus security didn't know what to do, there was also a bit of a hostage situation[3] going on, and so the cops were called. (By whom?) The the cops called the riot squad and then batons and pepper spray ensued. Speaking of which, does anybody know what the cops spray people with? If you have a bottle of water with you and you wash your eyes are you OK? Or do you need another solution? [1] http://www.mcgilltribune.com/news/riot-police-at-mcgill-1.2698850?compArticle=yes http://www.mcgilltribune.com/news/riot-police-at-mcgill-1.26... [2] http://news-archive.mcgill.ca/w97/salaries.htm http://news-archive.mcgill.ca/w97/salaries.htm [3] www.mcgilltribune.com/opinion/we-too-are-mcgill-1.2707960?compArticle=yes
- trop 15y ago
  Here's a video of one of the incidents: http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/uc-davis-cops-pepper-spray-protesters http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/uc-davis-cops-pepp.... No idea whether those are UC or local police. Pepper spray (what is apparently used in that video) is supposed to be extremely painful, and pain lasts for about half an hour. Rinsing eyes with lots of water can help, though that may not be an option as the order is generally to pepper-spray, then handcuff. Apparently a 50-50 solution of Malox and water is preferable to straight water. Hold head to side when rinsing, so water drips off, not down body.
- hugh3 15y ago
  I though cops //theoretically// weren't allowed on campus? lolwut? UC Davis has its own police force.
- _delirium 15y ago
  This varies by country; some countries have laws keeping police off campus, for various historical reasons. Some date back to the semi-independence of medieval universities, which weren't supposed to be harassed by the local authorities; others are more recent laws, e.g. Greece's "university asylum" law was a reaction to police raids on campuses by the '67-'74 military dictatorship. The U.S. doesn't have any particular no-police-on-campus rules, although they do have an interesting arrangement in many cases, including this one, where the campus police have been upgraded to "real" police, and non-university police are not usually allowed on campus, because it's not in their jurisdiction. How they relate to the university administration tends to be complex, but the goal is to make some mixture of a regular police force and a campus-security force: more "official" than only a campus security force, but university-controlled, like a campus-security force would be, as opposed to having city-controlled police on campus. It usually actually works pretty well, I think. Incidents like this are a lot less common than they might be with a regular police force, and many campus police have a geniune interest in keeping campuses calm and defusing confrontations. Even in this video, you can see that only one cop is really acting out of line, and many of the others look a bit uncomfortable with what's going on (especially when he's taking other cops' bottles of pepper spray to go back for more).
mikescar 15y ago
The strongest feeling that this open letter communicates is how strongly the author views himself. Starting with "I am an asset...you are not" and peppered throughout with "I [verb]" statements, this just reads as an exercise in self-promotion. There must be plenty of support with other faculty, where a simple and coherent statement could be made as a group. But the author apparently felt the need to jump out ahead of that with an open letter. How revolutionary.
- dmak 15y ago
  It's because of his role in Davis that makes this more credible. It shows how much he just as much, if not less, in to the UC Davis community. It can mean more if it was made as a group, but other faculty may not have agreed with everything he has said. Anyways, I don't see how can you even say this is a self-promotion.

122 points by lambada 15y ago

adnam 15y ago

Her apparent response: http://chancellor.ucdavis.edu/messages/2011/protest_action_111811.html http://chancellor.ucdavis.edu/messages/2011/protest_action_1...

jfager 15y ago
That is crazy Orwellian. "We have an obligation to your parents to keep you safe, so we're going to beat you with batons and shoot pepper spray down your throats".
- inuhj 15y ago
  It's especially bizarre given that the majority of college students are 18+. What obligation do you have to the parents of a 20 year old? Your obligations are solely to your students.
  - hugh3 15y ago
    In theory, college students are adults. These kids, though, don't seem to be acting like it. They think they're playing a game.
    - dbingham 15y ago
      No, they don't. They are fully aware of what they are doing, the history behind it, and the possible consequences of their actions. They are doing it because it is the right thing to do. In a time such as this, where the only voice you are left with is protest, then protest is the right way to use your voice.
_delirium 15y ago
This is a pretty strange sentence: We are even more saddened by the events that subsequently transpired to facilitate their removal. The only sentence in the statement that seems to actually refer to the actions being criticized, and written in the most indirect/vague possible manner.

VMG 15y ago

Again, very interesting story, but off-topic: http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. On reddit, I'd be in /r/politics.

dbingham 15y ago
You're right. Meanwhile, a story about Arrested Development being shown only on Netflix appears to be unquestionably on topic.
- hugh3 15y ago
  Indeed it is. That's a tech story, of direct relevance to the core topic here, since it's an important milestone in the internet and entertainment industry. Netflix has never before exclusively acquired a show, particularly not a popular one, for streaming purposes. The story generated an interesting discussion about the future of these two industries. This story, on the other hand, is not just a political story but political activism, and needs to be nuked off the face of HN with extreme prejudice, because they're like weeds and have a tendency to take over. The distinction is that people submit and upvote stories like these not because they think they're intellectually interesting, but because they're trying to make something happen politically.
DuncanIdaho 15y ago
I find the comments within stories, that have nothing more to add than "This is Offtopic" way more distracting than the stories themselves, even if they are offtopic. So I see this story, it seems offtopic but intriguing nonetheless. I see there are comments, I click on comments. And what do I get? A gang of self righteous internet citizens informing me that I am not interested in this story and/or debate. Thank you very much, may I be in charge for a while? If you have a problem with story, go and flag it. Preferably just ignore it - it will go away on its own. But don't go around pointing it out. Else you might be caught off guard by the shitstorm of down votes that is going to hit you. Attitudes like this also belong on /r/whatever.

tmpacct123 15y ago

It's interesting that the letter doesn't raise objections about the way that police used the pepper spray guns. Presumably they are given guidance on how they are allowed to use them that does not include forcing it into a persons mouth and spraying it down their throat.

_delirium 15y ago

The overuse of chemical agents is really pretty strange. I can maybe see using them in extreme situations; if people are in the process of burning down a building by throwing molotov cocktails through the windows, dispersing them with tear gas might be the only real option. But using chemical agents on people sitting on a lawn seems like a pretty poor balancing of force versus danger/urgency. One question is whether this is primarily a matter of bad policy, or of bad training. Are police officers using pepper spray, for example, in situations that policy does not call for, due to some hotheads being angry at protestors? Or are they acting properly according to the policy, so it's the policy/superiors who are at fault?

lambada 15y ago
If you look at the next post on the blog, there is a video of, what looks to be the first, pepper spray usage. I hope that this usage wasn't condoned.
hugh3 15y ago
If you're in a situation where a police officer is entitled to arrest you, but he physically can't arrest you because you're sitting on the ground with your arms linked with somebody else, then the police officer is entitled to use reasonable force in order to arrest you. Pepper spray is the least dangerous way (to you) to do this -- all other possibilities run the risk of breaking your arms. I'm really sick of this game, though. The game where protestors deliberately work as hard as they possibly can in order to provoke a police response, and then whine about the police response. This is a game the police can't possibly win, and the protestors know it; that's why they play it. If the police don't respond, then the protestors will just escalate their douchiness until they do. I know this game, it's the game I used to play with my older brother. Harass him until he hits me, and then go whine to my parents. It was pretty douchey of me, but hey, I was a kid. These kids are supposed to be grown up, what's their excuse?
- _delirium 15y ago
  > It's called being a complete cunt to your fellow human beings I can certainly agree that the policeman in question fits that description. But I'm sure he was "just following orders", which included the very urgent task of clearing some random sidewalk in a park. Although who is the bigger piece of shit depends in part on whether he was indeed ordered to do it, or was simply a poorly trained hothead acting without authorization (the police are sadly not empty of of power-hungry assholes who will use any excuse to "teach people a lesson", though I don't think such bad apples are quite as common as some people allege). Frankly, I'm sick of people such as yourself cheerleading violence against people you don't like, WWF-style, because you're fighting some sort of culture war against the imagined enemy of hippiedom, and feel that you can use any means necessary to fight it, including violent ones. That sort of playground bullshit is to be expected in kids, but you're grown up, so what's your excuse for not applying some rational analysis to the pros/cons of using violence? Actually, in the kid example, I blame the kid who punched there too. Poor impulse control isn't a justification for violence, and kids like that, if that behavior isn't fixed, often grow up to be violent adults who get "provoked" into fights, justifying it, just like the kid, by blaming someone else for "forcing" them to throw a punch in the bar.

hugh3 15y ago

Very very very very very very very flagged. Seriously, this got 76 upvotes? What do you think this is?

ivan_ah 15y ago

I though cops //theoretically// weren't allowed on campus? It seems that an exception to the rule is if the university calls them. Last week[1] students at my university (in Montreal), went into the Administration building and tried to occupy the offices of the principal. This is, apparently[2], something we have a tradition of doing every time someone tries to increase the tuition fees. Long story short, campus security didn't know what to do, there was also a bit of a hostage situation[3] going on, and so the cops were called. (By whom?) The the cops called the riot squad and then batons and pepper spray ensued. Speaking of which, does anybody know what the cops spray people with? If you have a bottle of water with you and you wash your eyes are you OK? Or do you need another solution? [1] http://www.mcgilltribune.com/news/riot-police-at-mcgill-1.2698850?compArticle=yes http://www.mcgilltribune.com/news/riot-police-at-mcgill-1.26... [2] http://news-archive.mcgill.ca/w97/salaries.htm http://news-archive.mcgill.ca/w97/salaries.htm [3] www.mcgilltribune.com/opinion/we-too-are-mcgill-1.2707960?compArticle=yes

trop 15y ago
Here's a video of one of the incidents: http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/uc-davis-cops-pepper-spray-protesters http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/11/uc-davis-cops-pepp.... No idea whether those are UC or local police. Pepper spray (what is apparently used in that video) is supposed to be extremely painful, and pain lasts for about half an hour. Rinsing eyes with lots of water can help, though that may not be an option as the order is generally to pepper-spray, then handcuff. Apparently a 50-50 solution of Malox and water is preferable to straight water. Hold head to side when rinsing, so water drips off, not down body.
hugh3 15y ago
I though cops //theoretically// weren't allowed on campus? lolwut? UC Davis has its own police force.
_delirium 15y ago
This varies by country; some countries have laws keeping police off campus, for various historical reasons. Some date back to the semi-independence of medieval universities, which weren't supposed to be harassed by the local authorities; others are more recent laws, e.g. Greece's "university asylum" law was a reaction to police raids on campuses by the '67-'74 military dictatorship. The U.S. doesn't have any particular no-police-on-campus rules, although they do have an interesting arrangement in many cases, including this one, where the campus police have been upgraded to "real" police, and non-university police are not usually allowed on campus, because it's not in their jurisdiction. How they relate to the university administration tends to be complex, but the goal is to make some mixture of a regular police force and a campus-security force: more "official" than only a campus security force, but university-controlled, like a campus-security force would be, as opposed to having city-controlled police on campus. It usually actually works pretty well, I think. Incidents like this are a lot less common than they might be with a regular police force, and many campus police have a geniune interest in keeping campuses calm and defusing confrontations. Even in this video, you can see that only one cop is really acting out of line, and many of the others look a bit uncomfortable with what's going on (especially when he's taking other cops' bottles of pepper spray to go back for more).

mikescar 15y ago

The strongest feeling that this open letter communicates is how strongly the author views himself. Starting with "I am an asset...you are not" and peppered throughout with "I [verb]" statements, this just reads as an exercise in self-promotion. There must be plenty of support with other faculty, where a simple and coherent statement could be made as a group. But the author apparently felt the need to jump out ahead of that with an open letter. How revolutionary.

dmak 15y ago
It's because of his role in Davis that makes this more credible. It shows how much he just as much, if not less, in to the UC Davis community. It can mean more if it was made as a group, but other faculty may not have agreed with everything he has said. Anyways, I don't see how can you even say this is a self-promotion.