8 ms·

However those TVs are not easy to get and, like you said, they come with an increased price. I couldn't recommend enough to buy an Apple TV (or equivalent) and

by nesk_ 4y ago

However those TVs are not easy to get and, like you said, they come with an increased price. I couldn't recommend enough to buy an Apple TV (or equivalent) and block all Internet access to your "smart" TV. I did this and everything was instantly better.

jtbayly 4y ago
How do you block internet if it will join open networks automatically?
- dylan604 4y ago
  That process tends to require the use of a screw driver and the willingness to perform a bit of modifications.
- indeyets 4y ago
  firewall by MAC-address
  - dylan604 4y ago
    If it's a trully open network that say is you neighbor's, then there's no way you can control this filtering. The Amazon Sidewalk or whatever they had planned would be an example of this that might be less obvious than your neighbor just being bad at IT.
- nesk_ 4y ago
  I just allowed my Samsung TV to connect to the wifi (to access the local network, because the Steam Link client is better on it than it is on the Apple TV) and then, on my router, I blocked all Internet access coming from the mac address of the Samsung TV.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    At some point, these devices will be smarter than you about this. They will recognize a WiFi connection that cannot access the internet, and prefer an open network instead.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      They will simply come with a cellular modem built in and you won't be able to block it. These things are so cheap now, and with virtual sims I think this is pretty much inevitable. At some point everything will be internet connected just because the tech will cost pennies. We're not there yet, but for a big ticket item such as a TV or a car it's either already there or about to happen.
      - filoleg 4y ago
        > They will come with a cellular modem built in, and you won't be able to block it. Haha, joke's one them. I live in a nice apartment in the middle of a major US city, and in my last 3 apartments, cell signal reception was ranging between 1 bar and no signal reception at all. Good luck with a built-in cell modem here. Thankfully, wifi calling is a thing working by default. So having almost no cell reception at home has exactly zero effect on my phone usage.
        reset-password 4y ago
        The worry I have is TVs also embedding an Amazon Sidewalk chip. Seems like it would be easy for them to egress your data through your neighbor's spy device with something like that.
        dylan604 4y ago
        Is that really a specific chip or just their Alexa devices creating a shared WiFi network?
        filoleg 4y ago
- coldpie 4y ago
  Has there ever been any evidence of any TV doing this, ever?
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Honestly why wouldn't they connect to for example a cell phone tower or wifi hotspot ex xfinity wifi to download ads? Just pay whomever happens to ferry the ad to your TV a percentage of the take. Seems like this may well not be the case NOW but if I were planning to use a device for 10 years then a software updating adding this feature seems like a distinct possibility.
- delecti 4y ago
  But will it join open networks automatically? It is of course entirely possible, technically speaking, but would get any company actually doing that in a lot of trouble in most developed countries.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > but would get any company actually doing that in a lot of trouble in most developed countries. Why then is Amazon building out its parasitic WiFi network, if not to give unmediated access to its devices. I bet Amazon FireOS devices will do this very thing in the next 2 years, and not get into any trouble for it in the US
- blibble 4y ago
  if it's that insidious let it connect to a dummy SSID that appears to be working but can't do anything useful
- Markoff 4y ago
  break antenna would be easiest solution, but you might possibly void the warranty while opening TV
  - earth_walker 4y ago
    Not giving them your money in the first place would be the easiest solution.
    - Markoff 4y ago
      except it will cost you way more money, if I have to choose between breaking antena in TV for 600 USD or buying special display for triple price, I am fairly sure I'd prefer to void the warranty and still buy 2 other TVs in case I would need warranty when I check cheapest/mainstream 65-75" TVs (wouldn't buy smaller nowadays considering cheapest 75" TV, which is Samsung here cost like 680 USD), all of them are smart
- gruez 4y ago
  It won't. Stories about it happening on the internet is plentiful, but actual evidence is scarce.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Depends on the behaviour. On the times you've observed it 1) will it bounce between open wifi points if one does not allow internet access (set up a honeypot) 2) will it try open wifi if you join it to a secured wifi and block that traffic 3) can you send de-auth packets to any open wifi the tv's radio connects to 4) can you desolder the wifi antenna completely
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  To join an open network, it needs an antenna, which are easy to identify and permanently remove.
xoa 4y ago
>I couldn't recommend enough to buy an Apple TV (or equivalent) and block all Internet access to your "smart" TV. I did this and everything was instantly better. I'd be worried that's a losing battle long term though (maybe even short/medium term?), same with other hacks like running your own DNS and blackholing ad stuff that way. At the ultimate level, cellular modules and fixed data plans are getting real cheap, and for that matter for those living in denser urban/suburban areas I've heard people saying some stuff seems to be extremely aggressive about grabbing onto any WiFi they can find. But I could definitely see a point where everything comes with its own 4G module just for advertising usage (and maybe firmware updates so they can hang a fig leaf of "easier, no configuration!" over it). If we start having to talk Faraday cages for our TVs that's really hard to get around. Even purely in software they could use fixed DNS IPs to bypass simple user DNS, DoH to bypass users then trying to force all DNS traffic through their own, VPNs, and all the other ways everyone normally try to punch through aggressive firewalling with. You're right that at present it's often still feasible to get a hostile TV then neuter it. But I think it's better to just not have a fundamentally malicious device inside your setup at all if it can be helped. To me that's worth some money up front, and I appreciate that it exists. At the core and unfortunately it appears data harvesting and advertising really is quite profitable, and in a further grim twist those trying to avoid it might be even more valuable than the average. Which means the margins may exist on something like TVs to make it worth it to amoral manufacturers to get fairly nasty. That's a hard race as everything gets more and more integrated, vs just rewarding those who don't do it. Or else get laws passed with enough fines to change the equation!
- rightbyte 4y ago
  > But I could definitely see a point where everything comes with its own 4G module just for advertising usage I guess those Google Maps cars can hook up to everything they can while driving around your block without the need for sim cards.
  - cma 4y ago
    Before long a loose dog can run by with a smart tag and pick it up (Amazon Sidewalk).
kwanbix 4y ago
Why don't you just disconnect it from the lan/wifi?
- nesk_ 4y ago
  Because of the Steam Link app, it's better at streaming good video quality than my Apple TV. I was really surprised by that but the app on the Samsung TV is wayyy better and doesn't drop half the frames.
dylan604 4y ago
>they come with an increased price. Do they, or do the consumer TVs come with a decreased price to make them more tempting as the manufacture knows they will make up that discount in selling the collected analytics? There was an article back some time now that showed how one brand was making more from the data sells than from the TVs themselves. Edit: It didn't take as long to find an example: https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/328967-vizio-makes-2x-more-selling-ads-and-data-than-it-does-on-tvs https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/328967-vizio-makes-2...
- ska 4y ago
  This isn't really surprising, as in general consumer electronics has famously thin margins. If you are in the race-to-the-bottom part of that, any other revenue source has an easy time moving the needle.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    But until recently those low margin consumer goods didn't have the ability to generate revenue after purchase. So it's same but totally different. It's not really the same thing if you sell at a 20% "loss" knowing you're going to make more than 2x the sale price in the data generated by that device.
    - ska 4y ago
      I think you are agreeing with me That this isn’t surprising ….
kornhole 4y ago
I don't know if you have been following the news about Apple expanding its advertising business. If you don't want a corporation collecting data about your viewing, you could modify your approach slightly and try kodi.tv. I have Librelec running on a RPI with attached SSD as house media server. The add-ons catalog is large and growing, but it won't have all the channels you might want.
- nesk_ 4y ago
  Unfortunately yes, I saw the news about Apple. I'm waiting to see what will happen concretely, but I'm not very optimist. We'll see and maybe it will be time to move to another device :'(
  - kornhole 4y ago
    Your TV probably has more than one HDMI input. So you can try kodi.tv by repurposing an old computer you have laying around. I haven't yet convinced my partner to ditch her Comcast set top box. So we use both. Kodi is my first choice for viewing anything. The other box is being used less and less.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    The “news” about Apple was Bloomberg guessing about Apple’s plans with zero evidence. Pretty sad example of the success of clickbait.
- vonseel 4y ago
  Does kodi / librelec have decent Netflix/Prime/HBO Max/Apple TV+ apps? I was under the impression they don't really support the big streaming apps and aren't really of use outside of watching torrented content.
  - saxonww 4y ago
    Kodi didn't the last time I checked. Note that unless you're running Windows or Mac, 4k from Netflix is not available anyway. In fact, 1080p would not be available, according to their system requirements. Linux tops out at 720p on both Chrome and Firefox. I have to assume this would extend to Kodi on whatever platform you're running Kodi on. https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742
badpun 4y ago
"Smart" TV can connect to public Wifis and other devices from the same manufacturer around you. I don't know if they do that already, but they could.
qwertox 4y ago
It's only a matter of time until these span their own Amazon Sidewalk-like networks and then possibly use the neighbors smartphone as a gateway. Like "my Samsung TV" <--> "neighbors Samsung TV" <--> 'neighbors Samsung Smartphone" (or skip the Smartphone if their TV is already connected without a properly set up firewall)

by nesk_ 4y ago

jtbayly 4y ago

How do you block internet if it will join open networks automatically?

dylan604 4y ago
That process tends to require the use of a screw driver and the willingness to perform a bit of modifications.
indeyets 4y ago
firewall by MAC-address
- dylan604 4y ago
  If it's a trully open network that say is you neighbor's, then there's no way you can control this filtering. The Amazon Sidewalk or whatever they had planned would be an example of this that might be less obvious than your neighbor just being bad at IT.
nesk_ 4y ago
I just allowed my Samsung TV to connect to the wifi (to access the local network, because the Steam Link client is better on it than it is on the Apple TV) and then, on my router, I blocked all Internet access coming from the mac address of the Samsung TV.
- dylan604 4y ago
  At some point, these devices will be smarter than you about this. They will recognize a WiFi connection that cannot access the internet, and prefer an open network instead.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    They will simply come with a cellular modem built in and you won't be able to block it. These things are so cheap now, and with virtual sims I think this is pretty much inevitable. At some point everything will be internet connected just because the tech will cost pennies. We're not there yet, but for a big ticket item such as a TV or a car it's either already there or about to happen.
    - filoleg 4y ago
      > They will come with a cellular modem built in, and you won't be able to block it. Haha, joke's one them. I live in a nice apartment in the middle of a major US city, and in my last 3 apartments, cell signal reception was ranging between 1 bar and no signal reception at all. Good luck with a built-in cell modem here. Thankfully, wifi calling is a thing working by default. So having almost no cell reception at home has exactly zero effect on my phone usage.
      - reset-password 4y ago
        The worry I have is TVs also embedding an Amazon Sidewalk chip. Seems like it would be easy for them to egress your data through your neighbor's spy device with something like that.
        dylan604 4y ago
        Is that really a specific chip or just their Alexa devices creating a shared WiFi network?
        filoleg 4y ago
coldpie 4y ago
Has there ever been any evidence of any TV doing this, ever?
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Honestly why wouldn't they connect to for example a cell phone tower or wifi hotspot ex xfinity wifi to download ads? Just pay whomever happens to ferry the ad to your TV a percentage of the take. Seems like this may well not be the case NOW but if I were planning to use a device for 10 years then a software updating adding this feature seems like a distinct possibility.
delecti 4y ago
But will it join open networks automatically? It is of course entirely possible, technically speaking, but would get any company actually doing that in a lot of trouble in most developed countries.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > but would get any company actually doing that in a lot of trouble in most developed countries. Why then is Amazon building out its parasitic WiFi network, if not to give unmediated access to its devices. I bet Amazon FireOS devices will do this very thing in the next 2 years, and not get into any trouble for it in the US
blibble 4y ago
if it's that insidious let it connect to a dummy SSID that appears to be working but can't do anything useful
Markoff 4y ago
break antenna would be easiest solution, but you might possibly void the warranty while opening TV
- earth_walker 4y ago
  Not giving them your money in the first place would be the easiest solution.
  - Markoff 4y ago
    except it will cost you way more money, if I have to choose between breaking antena in TV for 600 USD or buying special display for triple price, I am fairly sure I'd prefer to void the warranty and still buy 2 other TVs in case I would need warranty when I check cheapest/mainstream 65-75" TVs (wouldn't buy smaller nowadays considering cheapest 75" TV, which is Samsung here cost like 680 USD), all of them are smart
gruez 4y ago
It won't. Stories about it happening on the internet is plentiful, but actual evidence is scarce.
iso1631 4y ago
Depends on the behaviour. On the times you've observed it 1) will it bounce between open wifi points if one does not allow internet access (set up a honeypot) 2) will it try open wifi if you join it to a secured wifi and block that traffic 3) can you send de-auth packets to any open wifi the tv's radio connects to 4) can you desolder the wifi antenna completely
DocTomoe 4y ago
To join an open network, it needs an antenna, which are easy to identify and permanently remove.

xoa 4y ago

>I couldn't recommend enough to buy an Apple TV (or equivalent) and block all Internet access to your "smart" TV. I did this and everything was instantly better. I'd be worried that's a losing battle long term though (maybe even short/medium term?), same with other hacks like running your own DNS and blackholing ad stuff that way. At the ultimate level, cellular modules and fixed data plans are getting real cheap, and for that matter for those living in denser urban/suburban areas I've heard people saying some stuff seems to be extremely aggressive about grabbing onto any WiFi they can find. But I could definitely see a point where everything comes with its own 4G module just for advertising usage (and maybe firmware updates so they can hang a fig leaf of "easier, no configuration!" over it). If we start having to talk Faraday cages for our TVs that's really hard to get around. Even purely in software they could use fixed DNS IPs to bypass simple user DNS, DoH to bypass users then trying to force all DNS traffic through their own, VPNs, and all the other ways everyone normally try to punch through aggressive firewalling with. You're right that at present it's often still feasible to get a hostile TV then neuter it. But I think it's better to just not have a fundamentally malicious device inside your setup at all if it can be helped. To me that's worth some money up front, and I appreciate that it exists. At the core and unfortunately it appears data harvesting and advertising really is quite profitable, and in a further grim twist those trying to avoid it might be even more valuable than the average. Which means the margins may exist on something like TVs to make it worth it to amoral manufacturers to get fairly nasty. That's a hard race as everything gets more and more integrated, vs just rewarding those who don't do it. Or else get laws passed with enough fines to change the equation!

rightbyte 4y ago
> But I could definitely see a point where everything comes with its own 4G module just for advertising usage I guess those Google Maps cars can hook up to everything they can while driving around your block without the need for sim cards.
- cma 4y ago
  Before long a loose dog can run by with a smart tag and pick it up (Amazon Sidewalk).

kwanbix 4y ago

Why don't you just disconnect it from the lan/wifi?

nesk_ 4y ago
Because of the Steam Link app, it's better at streaming good video quality than my Apple TV. I was really surprised by that but the app on the Samsung TV is wayyy better and doesn't drop half the frames.

dylan604 4y ago

>they come with an increased price. Do they, or do the consumer TVs come with a decreased price to make them more tempting as the manufacture knows they will make up that discount in selling the collected analytics? There was an article back some time now that showed how one brand was making more from the data sells than from the TVs themselves. Edit: It didn't take as long to find an example: https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/328967-vizio-makes-2x-more-selling-ads-and-data-than-it-does-on-tvs https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/328967-vizio-makes-2...

ska 4y ago
This isn't really surprising, as in general consumer electronics has famously thin margins. If you are in the race-to-the-bottom part of that, any other revenue source has an easy time moving the needle.
- dylan604 4y ago
  But until recently those low margin consumer goods didn't have the ability to generate revenue after purchase. So it's same but totally different. It's not really the same thing if you sell at a 20% "loss" knowing you're going to make more than 2x the sale price in the data generated by that device.
  - ska 4y ago
    I think you are agreeing with me That this isn’t surprising ….

kornhole 4y ago

I don't know if you have been following the news about Apple expanding its advertising business. If you don't want a corporation collecting data about your viewing, you could modify your approach slightly and try kodi.tv. I have Librelec running on a RPI with attached SSD as house media server. The add-ons catalog is large and growing, but it won't have all the channels you might want.

nesk_ 4y ago
Unfortunately yes, I saw the news about Apple. I'm waiting to see what will happen concretely, but I'm not very optimist. We'll see and maybe it will be time to move to another device :'(
- kornhole 4y ago
  Your TV probably has more than one HDMI input. So you can try kodi.tv by repurposing an old computer you have laying around. I haven't yet convinced my partner to ditch her Comcast set top box. So we use both. Kodi is my first choice for viewing anything. The other box is being used less and less.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  The “news” about Apple was Bloomberg guessing about Apple’s plans with zero evidence. Pretty sad example of the success of clickbait.
vonseel 4y ago
Does kodi / librelec have decent Netflix/Prime/HBO Max/Apple TV+ apps? I was under the impression they don't really support the big streaming apps and aren't really of use outside of watching torrented content.
- saxonww 4y ago
  Kodi didn't the last time I checked. Note that unless you're running Windows or Mac, 4k from Netflix is not available anyway. In fact, 1080p would not be available, according to their system requirements. Linux tops out at 720p on both Chrome and Firefox. I have to assume this would extend to Kodi on whatever platform you're running Kodi on. https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742 https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23742

badpun 4y ago

"Smart" TV can connect to public Wifis and other devices from the same manufacturer around you. I don't know if they do that already, but they could.

qwertox 4y ago

It's only a matter of time until these span their own Amazon Sidewalk-like networks and then possibly use the neighbors smartphone as a gateway. Like "my Samsung TV" <--> "neighbors Samsung TV" <--> 'neighbors Samsung Smartphone" (or skip the Smartphone if their TV is already connected without a properly set up firewall)