4 ms·

If women feel HN is not currently for them, the questions would be: why not and what can we do to remedy that? Percentage of contributors is a problematic bench

by Udo 4y ago

If women feel HN is not currently for them, the questions would be: why not and what can we do to remedy that? Percentage of contributors is a problematic benchmark here, because the industry as a whole has a very depressing gender split. If you're put off by the conservatism often on display here, the solution is not to leave and look elsewhere - the solution would be more engagement and show of presence.

hnbad 4y ago
Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere where they don't have to fight an uphill battle against an entrenched gender bias (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549264)? Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change. HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change, quite the opposite actually. If how HN is is what's keeping women out, all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.
- Daedren 4y ago
  Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women. It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50. But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Because that would be a poll with merit. "Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change" -> What change has even been suggested? You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
  - warrenm 4y ago
    >Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women. The best way to improve "inclusivity" is by not worrying about "inclusivity" Let people do what they want >It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50. Why would a 50/50 split even be desirable? Should there be a 50/50 split in every industry? Why (or why not)? How would that be enforced?
    - Daedren 4y ago
      I agree with your post. It was just a sort of hypothetical because "entrenched gender bias" was mentioned by my comment's parent.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    > It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. It's been like this forever, for very small values of "forever". Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Not to mention needing the men in other professions because we were coming off the tail end of two world wars (and the US was sending its young men to the meat grinder of Vietnam). That said, this is also very much a cultural phenomenon rather than a global one. Percentages look very different in other countries than the US and Europe. But this is tangential because I'm not talking about HN needing a "50/50 split" and you're claiming HN merely has parity with the industry overall: > You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here. Did you look at the polls that were linked? 2008: 17.5% 2009: 0.54% 2013: 0.57% That 2008 number is somewhat similar to a random number I could find about SV in particular but still well below the 25%-ish figures I'm seeing for tech overall in most other statistics. And that figure came from a poll with an order of magnitude fewer participants. The other two aren't "zero women" but they're a rounding error away from that. > But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem. If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
    - Daedren 4y ago
      >Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Yes, it was a hyperbole. The point is that it stopped being a "female career path" at some point, and wasn't for a long time, thus there's many more men in the industry and that will take many generations to offset. >Did you look at the polls that were linked? Yes, the polls show that there aren't many women here, but you cannot infer the reason for that from the polls. You're being biased or omitting the information that led you to this conclusion. >Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem. Because we're having a discussion here right now and if you know that information, it's helpful for everyone if you shared. A debate is not about winning or losing, but for everyone to learn and improve from them. >If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem. This is wrong. Things can still change for the better despite the lack of a problem. The lack of women is concerning, depending on the -reason- why they're not here. I still don't see any clear reasoning that HN's culture is the problem, and I'm not just going to blindly agree.
- Bancakes 4y ago
- Udo 4y ago
  > Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere I didn't say that they should do all of the work. But going elsewhere would diminish everybody's experience. Segregation is always the worse option. If the problem is that we're missing a specific perspective, the solution in a vibrant community cannot be to just accept that and let things calcify. > HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change HN is not a monolith, this is unnecessarily reductive. Since this is a collaborative effort, it's a bad idea to drive progressive people out and cede the ground to conservatives. > all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it. How on Earth does this reflect what I said?
- gspetr 4y ago
  >If how HN is is what's keeping women out How is HN keeping women out? Every comment I've seen in the decade I've been on HN dismissing a woman solely because of the gender has been either downvoted to oblivion, flagged, or even deleted by the mod team.

by Udo 4y ago

hnbad 4y ago

Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere where they don't have to fight an uphill battle against an entrenched gender bias (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549264 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32549264)? Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change. HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change, quite the opposite actually. If how HN is is what's keeping women out, all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it.

Daedren 4y ago
Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women. It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50. But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Because that would be a poll with merit. "Therapy is useless if you're not willing to change" -> What change has even been suggested? You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here.
- warrenm 4y ago
  >Because we'll never achieve a 50/50 split, we must learn to live with each other and adapt. Plus there are also other minorities we need to take into account, not just women. The best way to improve "inclusivity" is by not worrying about "inclusivity" Let people do what they want >It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. Even if suddenly we had a women majority of new people, it'd still take many generations for us to hit 50/50. Why would a 50/50 split even be desirable? Should there be a 50/50 split in every industry? Why (or why not)? How would that be enforced?
  - Daedren 4y ago
    I agree with your post. It was just a sort of hypothetical because "entrenched gender bias" was mentioned by my comment's parent.
- hnbad 4y ago
  > It's just a fact that there's far more men in the industry, it's been like this forever. It's been like this forever, for very small values of "forever". Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Not to mention needing the men in other professions because we were coming off the tail end of two world wars (and the US was sending its young men to the meat grinder of Vietnam). That said, this is also very much a cultural phenomenon rather than a global one. Percentages look very different in other countries than the US and Europe. But this is tangential because I'm not talking about HN needing a "50/50 split" and you're claiming HN merely has parity with the industry overall: > You're assuming there's less women because "HN is as it is", but isn't it far more likely to be because there's just less women in the industry? It could be either, but we can't just assume and take drastic action. It's not that there's zero women here. Did you look at the polls that were linked? 2008: 17.5% 2009: 0.54% 2013: 0.57% That 2008 number is somewhat similar to a random number I could find about SV in particular but still well below the 25%-ish figures I'm seeing for tech overall in most other statistics. And that figure came from a poll with an order of magnitude fewer participants. The other two aren't "zero women" but they're a rounding error away from that. > But in this community, what are the issues that makes women -allegedly- not feeling welcome? Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem. If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem.
  - Daedren 4y ago
    >Programming literally started as a female career path because it had wasn't a highly regarded profession and seen as similar to being a secretary or office manager. Yes, it was a hyperbole. The point is that it stopped being a "female career path" at some point, and wasn't for a long time, thus there's many more men in the industry and that will take many generations to offset. >Did you look at the polls that were linked? Yes, the polls show that there aren't many women here, but you cannot infer the reason for that from the polls. You're being biased or omitting the information that led you to this conclusion. >Why do you ask someone on HN instead of looking at what people are saying about HN outside of HN? Of course calling it an issue requires you to actually agree that it is bad or a problem. Because we're having a discussion here right now and if you know that information, it's helpful for everyone if you shared. A debate is not about winning or losing, but for everyone to learn and improve from them. >If you don't agree that something is a problem, that's literally an unwillingness to change, no matter how justified you think that unwillingness is or how much you disagree with the thing being a problem. This is wrong. Things can still change for the better despite the lack of a problem. The lack of women is concerning, depending on the -reason- why they're not here. I still don't see any clear reasoning that HN's culture is the problem, and I'm not just going to blindly agree.
Bancakes 4y ago
Udo 4y ago
> Why should women do the work of making HN more attractive to women if they could just go elsewhere I didn't say that they should do all of the work. But going elsewhere would diminish everybody's experience. Segregation is always the worse option. If the problem is that we're missing a specific perspective, the solution in a vibrant community cannot be to just accept that and let things calcify. > HN doesn't actually show any indication of willigness to change HN is not a monolith, this is unnecessarily reductive. Since this is a collaborative effort, it's a bad idea to drive progressive people out and cede the ground to conservatives. > all you're asking of women is to grit their teeth and endure it. How on Earth does this reflect what I said?
gspetr 4y ago
>If how HN is is what's keeping women out How is HN keeping women out? Every comment I've seen in the decade I've been on HN dismissing a woman solely because of the gender has been either downvoted to oblivion, flagged, or even deleted by the mod team.