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> For most of history, people thought: “The world is bad and, usually, it’s getting worse.” In other words, no longer did humans see themselves as mere pawns f

> For most of history, people thought: “The world is bad and, usually, it’s getting worse.” In other words, no longer did humans see themselves as mere pawns for the gods. What? Citation needed. A negative view of individual sin is certainly part of the Christian worldview, but gods are not, nor is an overall negative outlook. The whole point is that God loves his people enough to save them, the Church will expand, and Christ will return in glory. If the author is describing paganism ("pawns for the gods") I'm curious to know which of those had an overall negative view with such widespread influence that those religions could describe people generally. Certainly the Greeks and the Romans thought very highly of themselves and believed that the gods were with them, hence they flourished. This seems more like an atheist talking point than anything grounded in history.

xupybd 4y ago
I agree however the problem is that you can probably find someone claiming to be Christian that lives as a "pawn for the gods". That kind of legalism slips into peoples lives. Especially the kind of people that are not fully convinced but go along for other reasons. Often these people become strong champions against Christianity, as it's a pretty horrible way to live. If you think that is the way Christianity is supposed to be it's no wonder you'd try to prevent others from living that way. Her statement: "They could bring logic and the scientific method to bear and actually fix things that were bad, wrong, or deadly. That is our inheritance, and a priceless one at that. We were given tools, not answers. But those tools, when properly deployed, transform human lives." Lines up with the Christian purpose for people: "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." But we all misunderstand each other all the time. I'm sure I don't fully understand the authors beliefs. I'd love for her to meet some "Christian nationalists" to find out what they really want. I think we all have more common ground than most realize. It's a shame things have become so tribal.
felipeerias 4y ago
Perhaps the author is thinking of the many creation myths about an original nearly-divine past. In practical terms, for most of history the large majority of people were farmers and simply thought that the world was just about the same as it had always been. Traditional belief systems were usually structured in terms of cycles, whether the yearly change of the seasons, the growth and decline of a human life, or the silent movements of celestial bodies. Leaving aside great wars or catastrophes, social and economic changes happened slowly and would have been hard to identify by an individual living through them.
lucas_membrane 4y ago
Seems that since Euler developed exponential functions (circa the enlightenment), exponential growth of knowledge and economies and exponential improvement in the human condition have become the standard expectation for the enlightened world, replacing the previous standard expectation of alternating good times and bad times. The optimists and the winners over the recent centuries have been able to make a good case that this change in thinking has not been completely discredited by experience. Does that mean that the good times are here to stay? A reasonable attempt at an unbiased point of view on this issue would acknowledge some kind of selection effect -- one would expect that a few hundred years experience would appear particularly favorable to civilizations and cultures that you get after a few hundred years of that same experience, so maybe things are not objectively quite as good as they look to us. A simple statistical estimate of how long the current era might be sustained can be made by coming up with a number for how long it has already been here, and considering ourselves as occurring at a uniformly random point in its total lifetime. That procedure produces ~90% certainty that things will continue as is for at least 1/20th as long as the era has been here but not more than 20 times as long. For example, if you put the start of the era of technological progress around 1620, this kind of know-nothing (about specific current conditions) estimate would put us 90% sure that it will last at least another 20 years, but not more than 8000 years. YMMV.
boxed 4y ago
> The whole point is that God loves his people enough to save them, the Church will expand, and Christ will return in glory. ish. It also promises that not even death is an escape, but that God will raise all the dead and judge an enormous majority to be literally thrown into a valley of fire. Reading the Bible I see more of a threat, than a promise.
- orang2tang 4y ago
  But just as sin entered the world through one man, it was defeated through one man as well, Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation for anyone who believes in Jesus. So being saved from hell is quite simple, which is why it's called "the good news" or the gospel. And that's God's plan for humanity, and he's begging you to simply seek this man named Jesus. God's wisdom is made that much more powerful in what some might call foolishness, just as he prescribed circumcision to the Jews. Abraham was required to put off his pride and simply believe God, that circumcision was a commandment from God for the Jews, and this faith in God is what saves. You don't think Abraham received a lot of judgement for prescribing circumcision? Just as Christians receive judgement for prescribing the new circumcision, which is the circumcision of the heart to believe in Jesus Christ. It requires people to put off their pride, realize their very nature offends God (because he is perfect so anything less than perfect is an offense to him) and repent of their unbelief in the only begotten son of God, who knew our same struggles here on Earth and was killed without reason so that we could live. This belief covers our heads from wrath, because now when God looks at us he sees Christ. So it's called the good news because it is. We can defeat death and enter into an unimaginable state of perfection. What I find with people who don't believe is that they're blinded by what they think Christianity is. So for you I would say you're blinded by the problem of hell. But if God tells us it is real, that is true and you have no say in the matter. Your belief or unbelief doesn't change the truth of the word of God. God is above politics, above human wisdom, and also above the people that claim his name. I should note that I used to have the same opinion as you! No judgement!
  - boxed 4y ago
    There is no threat, unless you do exactly what I say. Yea, that's the threat. > I should note that I used to have the same opinion as you! No judgement! Common thing to hear. I have never believed anyone has ever gone from a strong atheist who reads the bible and can so obviously see the cruelty and madness, and then suddenly turn around and become a christian apologist? It's just as believable as the bible in the first place.
andrepd 4y ago
If there is a thing that marked the whole span of the Medieval age in the Christian world, from 500 to 1500, is the generalised, widespread belief that the world was about to end. That it was corrupted and degenerated and that the end of the world coming. No matter what you personally believe to be the message of Christianity, this was the thinking for a huge chunk of Christianity's existence so far.
fuzzfactor 4y ago
Pray toward heaven, but row toward shore.

xupybd 4y ago

I agree however the problem is that you can probably find someone claiming to be Christian that lives as a "pawn for the gods". That kind of legalism slips into peoples lives. Especially the kind of people that are not fully convinced but go along for other reasons. Often these people become strong champions against Christianity, as it's a pretty horrible way to live. If you think that is the way Christianity is supposed to be it's no wonder you'd try to prevent others from living that way. Her statement: "They could bring logic and the scientific method to bear and actually fix things that were bad, wrong, or deadly. That is our inheritance, and a priceless one at that. We were given tools, not answers. But those tools, when properly deployed, transform human lives." Lines up with the Christian purpose for people: "God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground." But we all misunderstand each other all the time. I'm sure I don't fully understand the authors beliefs. I'd love for her to meet some "Christian nationalists" to find out what they really want. I think we all have more common ground than most realize. It's a shame things have become so tribal.

felipeerias 4y ago

Perhaps the author is thinking of the many creation myths about an original nearly-divine past. In practical terms, for most of history the large majority of people were farmers and simply thought that the world was just about the same as it had always been. Traditional belief systems were usually structured in terms of cycles, whether the yearly change of the seasons, the growth and decline of a human life, or the silent movements of celestial bodies. Leaving aside great wars or catastrophes, social and economic changes happened slowly and would have been hard to identify by an individual living through them.

lucas_membrane 4y ago

Seems that since Euler developed exponential functions (circa the enlightenment), exponential growth of knowledge and economies and exponential improvement in the human condition have become the standard expectation for the enlightened world, replacing the previous standard expectation of alternating good times and bad times. The optimists and the winners over the recent centuries have been able to make a good case that this change in thinking has not been completely discredited by experience. Does that mean that the good times are here to stay? A reasonable attempt at an unbiased point of view on this issue would acknowledge some kind of selection effect -- one would expect that a few hundred years experience would appear particularly favorable to civilizations and cultures that you get after a few hundred years of that same experience, so maybe things are not objectively quite as good as they look to us. A simple statistical estimate of how long the current era might be sustained can be made by coming up with a number for how long it has already been here, and considering ourselves as occurring at a uniformly random point in its total lifetime. That procedure produces ~90% certainty that things will continue as is for at least 1/20th as long as the era has been here but not more than 20 times as long. For example, if you put the start of the era of technological progress around 1620, this kind of know-nothing (about specific current conditions) estimate would put us 90% sure that it will last at least another 20 years, but not more than 8000 years. YMMV.

boxed 4y ago

> The whole point is that God loves his people enough to save them, the Church will expand, and Christ will return in glory. ish. It also promises that not even death is an escape, but that God will raise all the dead and judge an enormous majority to be literally thrown into a valley of fire. Reading the Bible I see more of a threat, than a promise.

orang2tang 4y ago
But just as sin entered the world through one man, it was defeated through one man as well, Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation for anyone who believes in Jesus. So being saved from hell is quite simple, which is why it's called "the good news" or the gospel. And that's God's plan for humanity, and he's begging you to simply seek this man named Jesus. God's wisdom is made that much more powerful in what some might call foolishness, just as he prescribed circumcision to the Jews. Abraham was required to put off his pride and simply believe God, that circumcision was a commandment from God for the Jews, and this faith in God is what saves. You don't think Abraham received a lot of judgement for prescribing circumcision? Just as Christians receive judgement for prescribing the new circumcision, which is the circumcision of the heart to believe in Jesus Christ. It requires people to put off their pride, realize their very nature offends God (because he is perfect so anything less than perfect is an offense to him) and repent of their unbelief in the only begotten son of God, who knew our same struggles here on Earth and was killed without reason so that we could live. This belief covers our heads from wrath, because now when God looks at us he sees Christ. So it's called the good news because it is. We can defeat death and enter into an unimaginable state of perfection. What I find with people who don't believe is that they're blinded by what they think Christianity is. So for you I would say you're blinded by the problem of hell. But if God tells us it is real, that is true and you have no say in the matter. Your belief or unbelief doesn't change the truth of the word of God. God is above politics, above human wisdom, and also above the people that claim his name. I should note that I used to have the same opinion as you! No judgement!
- boxed 4y ago
  There is no threat, unless you do exactly what I say. Yea, that's the threat. > I should note that I used to have the same opinion as you! No judgement! Common thing to hear. I have never believed anyone has ever gone from a strong atheist who reads the bible and can so obviously see the cruelty and madness, and then suddenly turn around and become a christian apologist? It's just as believable as the bible in the first place.

andrepd 4y ago

If there is a thing that marked the whole span of the Medieval age in the Christian world, from 500 to 1500, is the generalised, widespread belief that the world was about to end. That it was corrupted and degenerated and that the end of the world coming. No matter what you personally believe to be the message of Christianity, this was the thinking for a huge chunk of Christianity's existence so far.

fuzzfactor 4y ago

Pray toward heaven, but row toward shore.