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NYC Fire Department forcible entry reference guide [pdf] (2006)
- matsur 4y agoAmusing to see “check if the handle opens the door” as an explicit step called out multiple times.
- hackernewds 4y agoFrom experience probably. something that is missed often, when you're focused on a protocol that says "forcible entry"
- Maxion 4y agoAnd you expect most doors to be locked.
- colechristensen 4y agoIt’s real though. When you’re making procedures “do the obvious thing” has to be the first step and putting it in there will prevent so many mistakes. Checklists work. Trusting people to do the obvious reasonable thing in repetitive or stressful situations does not.
- tailspin2019 4y agoObligatory call out to "The Checklist Manifesto" http://atulgawande.com/book/the-checklist-manifesto/ http://atulgawande.com/book/the-checklist-manifesto/
- Litost 4y agoThanks for this, I ended up down the rabbit hole of David Lee Roth and no brown M&M's backstage which is both an amusing story a) about how the media industry works and also b) of putting something seemingly innocuous but easily verifiable in the middle of a long checklist as an early warning sign of a process not having been followed properly, which obviously has applications anywhere something critical is being done. Hopefully the surgeon insights in the book are equally valuable. https://rockcelebrities.net/the-reason-behind-david-lee-roths-brown-mms-request-for-live-shows/ https://rockcelebrities.net/the-reason-behind-david-lee-roth...
- sklargh 4y agoSeat belt use* is the brown M&M of the US fire service community. If you don't see regular seat belt use in your local fire department, you should find out why. It typically means the company officers just aren't doing their job. If your department - A. Wears seat belts; B. Chocks the wheels religiously; C. Checks if the door is locked before breach; D. Positions apparatus for, but does not initiate water supply properly at all credible alarms; they're going after some really pernicious problems, typically driven by sheer laziness, in the fire service. *FFs, yes ice rescue, I know, edge case.
- kqr 4y agoAmusing, but not strange in the least. Pilots sometimes need to remember in incipient emergencies that first, they should fly the plane. I worked a bit in e-commerce and the first sentence I wrote in every incident response manual was "Does the potentially affected website work?" Because people would forget to check that!
- bambax 4y agoThere are many anecdotes of people trying to convince the firefighters that they can open the door normally, and the firefighters not letting them use the keys and breaking the door instead. It can be frustrating for the homeowners but firefighters are probably trained to think that "every second counts" and damage is of course irrelevant, as the fire will destroy everything if it spreads. But it's good that they would at least test the handle.
- Ekaros 4y agoKeys I can understand, but handle is something inexcusable. Just getting the equipment or placement to break the door must take more time.
- mlyle 4y ago> Just getting the equipment or placement to break the door must take more time Firefighters stroll up with a Halligan Hook and an 8 pound axe. Entry can be fast. Even a lot of medium-weight metal doors and frames will yield in less than 10 seconds of skilled use. Not quite as quick as the handle, but if the handle usually doesn't work...
- chanandler_bong 4y ago"Try before you pry" as the saying goes...
- rob74 4y ago...as opposed to "kick in the door first, ask questions later"?
- donw 4y agoThis is for firefighters, not the FBI.
- twoxproblematic 4y ago
- Archelaos 4y agoIt is the equivalent to the very important advice for engineers: "Switch it off and on again!"
- doikor 4y agoIts the same thing in all CPR manuals. First check for pulse/breathing before doing anything else. Actually you should start by trying to wake them by yelling or shaking them around a bit. This is very common in lots of emergency procedure checklists. First check if you actually need to do this procedure/use the tool/etc.
- haimez 4y agoDefinitely don’t shake an unconscious person around unless you’re sure that they don’t have a spinal injury.
- mistrial9 4y agoif it is safe and you can control your motions, touching the face or holding the hands are a start
- doikor 4y agoAnd you think you giving them CPR would not do even more damage (good luck holding them still while pumping their hearth through their ribs)? Obviously if you see them take some big hit treat them with that possibility but if you see some random person passed on the street making sure their brain is receiving oxygen is always the first priority. (after making sure the patient is in a safe place so remove them from a burning building first etc.)
- haimez 4y agoAgreed, priority is to ensure there’s oxygen to the brain- but in the process of ascertaining if they’re indeed unconscious, don’t start by grabbing their shoulders and shaking them violently. Touching their hands and face as pointed out in a sibling comment is better, and after determining that they’re not breathing and have no pulse definitely proceed with vigorous CPR because potentially paralyzed is of course better than dead. Also, be aware of whether Good Samaritan laws protect you from liability before deciding to proceed.
- r00fus 4y agoWould really have helped the Uvalde police department.
- illuminerdy 4y ago
- jonah-archive 4y agoIt looks like this is a link directly to the PDF on one of our servers. You can link to e.g. https://archive.org/details/FDNYforcibleEntryReferenceGuide https://archive.org/details/FDNYforcibleEntryReferenceGuide and it will serve from one of the servers that can source the item even if this particular server is offline, and will be valid in the future if the item is ever moved off of this server.
- interroboink 4y agoIt's a good point to make. But dang, why must there be a built-into-the-page PDF reader that I have to fart around with? I'd rather just have a simple PDF that gets served from some load-balanced location, so I can use my own viewing tools. I'm sure there are good reasons, and I realize there is a download link in the "..." menu, so it's not too bad, at least. Just griping (:
- akkartik 4y agoThere's a list of download options on the right if you scroll down.
- jonah-archive 4y agoI guess a more direct analog to the original link would be https://archive.org/download/FDNYforcibleEntryReferenceGuide/FDNY_Forcible_entry_reference_guide.pdf https://archive.org/download/FDNYforcibleEntryReferenceGuide... , which will take you directly to the PDF and provides the load-balanced benefits. I linked to the item's main page, which has other download options for different e-readers, metadata, etc, in addition to the bookreader interface (which provides additional options like Read Aloud and Search Inside (and it's open source! https://github.com/internetarchive/bookreader https://github.com/internetarchive/bookreader ).
- extheat 4y agoI’m sure it works pretty well on desktop browsers, but on mobile the web interface is pretty hard to use. The PDF link though works great.
- GoodOldNe 4y agoMy Halligan bar is my favorite tool I own. I've never used it for its intended purpose but it's super fun to hold and show people.
- Tomte 4y agoHm, it must be a different one to the one I saw years ago. That had the recommendation that if a door lock is difficult, think about going through the wall next to the door.
- blincoln 4y agoI am not a member of a forcible entry team (IANAMOAFET), but that sounds like a bad idea. Walls are likely to have plumbing and/or electrical wiring in them. Putting an axe or chainsaw through a 220v circuit would not be a good way to start fighting the fire. It might make more sense if one wasn't in a hurry, though.
- stickfigure 4y agoDunno what they do in cities, but out here in the country cutting power is one of the first things we do.
- SoftTalker 4y agoFirefighters wear rubber insulated boots. There might be some sparks but they would be OK cutting residential voltage power lines.
- alistairSH 4y agoWould that work for 220V lines to major appliances? For those outside the US, our residential electrical service is a mix of 120V for lighting and general outlets and 240V for major appliances (ovens, HVAC, etc). Commercial is usually 3-phase at higher voltages (but, IIRC, there's a mix of several specs used - residential is more standardized).
- alistairSH 4y agoif a door lock is difficult, think about going through the wall next to the door Under what circumstances would the wall be the preferred way to penetrate a building? Just thinking of the homes in which I've lived (all typical US suburban builds), exterior windows or glass sliding doors would likely be the fastest access. Apartments were a mix of cinderblock wall skinned with drywall or wood/metal framing skinned with drywall - if you knew it was wood under drywall, that might be faster (but that's also ignoring utilities that might be contained in the wall)? But would you know that in advance?
- rexf 4y agoSeeing all these tools & explanations is amazing. Wonder if someone could make a fun firefighter video game about breaking into various properties using this PDF. The game would focus on gaining forcible access (so the first responder could save the day).
- lbriner 4y agoIf I've learned anything from TV, all doors can be kicked in by an average sized cop ;-)
- mindcrime 4y agoYou might be surprised at how true that can be. At least for many residential doors, outside of "high crime" areas where the resident may have beefed things up with a fox lock or something. An average sized guy, who learns to "mule kick" well and aims for the right spot, can breach a pretty good percentage of doors in my experience. (Source: former firefighter here.)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- aaron695 4y ago
- drp 4y agoPrevious discussion from 2016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11031303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11031303
- jollyllama 4y agoIf this is your thing, check out Coastal Fire Training. They sell tools, courses, and put out lots of free info and techniques. https://www.youtube.com/c/CoastalFireTrainingLLC https://www.youtube.com/c/CoastalFireTrainingLLC
- wmorein 4y agoThis is very cool but I just wish the NYFD would stop being so ultra-conservative and start allowing home batteries like the Tesla Powerwall in NY buildings.
- illuminerdy 4y agoIt's so strange that this was posted today (for me at least). Yesterday we had the FDNY break in to the house because there was a fire in a garage somewhat connected to the house. I heard some people banging around in the hallway and went out of the apartment to fin at least 3 firefighters. They had broken the lock on the gate and bent part of the metal, they broke the main wooden door, and they knocked down a part of the brick wall that separates our yard from the neighbor's yard. They also went into the cellar and tracked hella mud through the house. Anyway, insurance will pay for the damage so whatever.