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> There are objective answers to management problems That is something you believe to be true. And something I believe to not be true. Have you ever managed la

> There are objective answers to management problems That is something you believe to be true. And something I believe to not be true. Have you ever managed large teams of developers? I have. For many years. And I was very successful doing it. However there was no “objective” way for me to manage the teams. Humans are complex. And the interaction of team members even more so. I have never seen an “objective” metric applied to a team that actually worked without unexpected negative consequences and/or without being gamed by smart team members. If you have an example of an objective metric that has actually worked in reality without negative side effects and without being gamed I would like to hear it.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
Objective does not reducible to a metric. It means when given an object (a team of developers and your relationships wih them) then there is a space of correct answers (ie. not reducing those interactions to a metric) and a space of wrong answers (ie. trying to start an orgy every day). Your real name is subjective (it depends only on what you decide it is) Your favourite colour is subjective Whether you like a piece of art, think it's good or think it achieved what was intend€d is subjective The meaning of a piece of art is objective but not reducible to a metric and maybe not unique. This assertion that things are objective if and only if simple models based on overly reductive metrics are the only correct tool for thinking about them is incredibly wrong and destructive.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  How the totality of possible choices are sorted into the correct and wrong answer spaces is subjective. Although there are many that will be sorted the same independent of the manager, there are others that will be sorted specifically because of the manager (the subject). One manager will decide one way because of their internal thought processes, and another may decide the opposite. This then means that some (but not all) management choices are in fact subjective.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    That's a description of objective. Additionally there is a very simple test for whether your allegedly subjective edge case was objectively right. Did the thing you were trying to do get done? If the answer is no, then it might have been a reasonable strategy, but if there was a different strategy that would have achieved your goals (both stated and unstated) better then it wasn't the most correct strategy. There are actions that lead to the things you want (whether profit, or a project, or a team that feels fulfilled, a sane and safe working environment, etc) being done, and actions that do not. Sometimes which are which are unknown or even unknowable ahead of time or the only known thing is that attempting to instrument humans and treat them as machines will not work. Sometimes they are very particular to the situation. But once your actions have an explicit goal then strategies for achieving that goal are objective.
- mbrodersen 4y ago
  > Objective does not reducible to a metric That’s quite a claim. Can you give me an example of an objective measurement that isn’t a metric?
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    Whether, after repeated projects, your team has succeeded more often than average at delivering the project with clients that either will return or help generate more clients, and approximately average (or less) resources as input, that the team are content, cohesive, and fulfilled with their work, and possibly that it was profitable. Ie. that the world you are in after having managed is one you like better than the one that you started in (and before you digress by saying that is subjective, the goal can be subjective but strategies for achieving that goal are objective once a goal is selected) or at least better than counterfactual worlds where you managed differently. None of these things can be reliably turned into a metric that you can measure day by day without one or several highly fallible layers of abstraction. Any model complex enough to capture all the nuances such that you can blindly follow its output can just be called a manager.
    - mbrodersen 4y ago
      So what you are saying is that you can only objectively measure anything after the fact. Making objectivity useless as a team management tool. My point exactly. Not only that, even if your team was successful in the past, that doesn’t mean that doing what worked in the past will also make your team successful in the future. The context is important. And the context is always different when you start the next project. It might be a different customer, a different problem, a different team (people leaving/joining), a different world (politics/laws) etc. So what you are left with is your experience, your people skills, and your ability to adapt to new situations. I believe that no “objective” tool will help with that. But I would be happy to be wrong. So let me ask again: if you know an objective way to improve the likelihood of your team being successful then I would love to hear it. It would be great to have such a tool.
      - 4y ago

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Objective does not reducible to a metric. It means when given an object (a team of developers and your relationships wih them) then there is a space of correct answers (ie. not reducing those interactions to a metric) and a space of wrong answers (ie. trying to start an orgy every day). Your real name is subjective (it depends only on what you decide it is) Your favourite colour is subjective Whether you like a piece of art, think it's good or think it achieved what was intend€d is subjective The meaning of a piece of art is objective but not reducible to a metric and maybe not unique. This assertion that things are objective if and only if simple models based on overly reductive metrics are the only correct tool for thinking about them is incredibly wrong and destructive.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
How the totality of possible choices are sorted into the correct and wrong answer spaces is subjective. Although there are many that will be sorted the same independent of the manager, there are others that will be sorted specifically because of the manager (the subject). One manager will decide one way because of their internal thought processes, and another may decide the opposite. This then means that some (but not all) management choices are in fact subjective.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  That's a description of objective. Additionally there is a very simple test for whether your allegedly subjective edge case was objectively right. Did the thing you were trying to do get done? If the answer is no, then it might have been a reasonable strategy, but if there was a different strategy that would have achieved your goals (both stated and unstated) better then it wasn't the most correct strategy. There are actions that lead to the things you want (whether profit, or a project, or a team that feels fulfilled, a sane and safe working environment, etc) being done, and actions that do not. Sometimes which are which are unknown or even unknowable ahead of time or the only known thing is that attempting to instrument humans and treat them as machines will not work. Sometimes they are very particular to the situation. But once your actions have an explicit goal then strategies for achieving that goal are objective.
mbrodersen 4y ago
> Objective does not reducible to a metric That’s quite a claim. Can you give me an example of an objective measurement that isn’t a metric?
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Whether, after repeated projects, your team has succeeded more often than average at delivering the project with clients that either will return or help generate more clients, and approximately average (or less) resources as input, that the team are content, cohesive, and fulfilled with their work, and possibly that it was profitable. Ie. that the world you are in after having managed is one you like better than the one that you started in (and before you digress by saying that is subjective, the goal can be subjective but strategies for achieving that goal are objective once a goal is selected) or at least better than counterfactual worlds where you managed differently. None of these things can be reliably turned into a metric that you can measure day by day without one or several highly fallible layers of abstraction. Any model complex enough to capture all the nuances such that you can blindly follow its output can just be called a manager.
  - mbrodersen 4y ago
    So what you are saying is that you can only objectively measure anything after the fact. Making objectivity useless as a team management tool. My point exactly. Not only that, even if your team was successful in the past, that doesn’t mean that doing what worked in the past will also make your team successful in the future. The context is important. And the context is always different when you start the next project. It might be a different customer, a different problem, a different team (people leaving/joining), a different world (politics/laws) etc. So what you are left with is your experience, your people skills, and your ability to adapt to new situations. I believe that no “objective” tool will help with that. But I would be happy to be wrong. So let me ask again: if you know an objective way to improve the likelihood of your team being successful then I would love to hear it. It would be great to have such a tool.
    - 4y ago