4 ms·

While I love my OLED TV (LG C8, had it 4 years now) there is one thing I still preferred with my plasma TVs and that is motion. OLED is great but the near insta

While I love my OLED TV (LG C8, had it 4 years now) there is one thing I still preferred with my plasma TVs and that is motion. OLED is great but the near instant pixel response means for lower frame rate content such as movies (24p) and most tv shows (25 or 30p) there is stutter. This isn't visible in many scenes but anything with panning and it looks, to me, quite jarring and I dislike it a lot. This isn't an issue with plasma screens as you get some natural motion blur with the pixel response times giving a smoother overall presentation. You can somewhat alleviate the stutter on OLEDs using motion processing on low (or using special "cinema" settings on newer models) but it isn't perfect as it introduces slight artifacts which also suck plus the smoothing gives ever-so-slight soap opera effect that wasn't present on plasma screens. However for gaming that near instant pixel response for 60 or 120fps games is freaking awesome. You really can't beat OLED for a gaming display. Just amazing.

majormajor 4y ago
How much of this is "pixel response" and how much is size? Newer TVs highly correlate with larger TVs. Want to see judder? Watch a 24fps projection in a huge theater. I've seen jerky panning on big screens through my life, even in the film days (I guess film projection doesn't have any persistenc of image either - but this, to my mind, would still be a rebuttal to the idea that a display with some like a CRT is "better" vs just accidentally blurry in sometimes-useful ways). I don't remember my plasma being any better at this than the LCD that replaced it in the same size, but it's been a long time. I certainly didn't immediately notice anything getting worse (the black levels, on the other hand...). (And what if you want crisp motion, e.g. for 60p sports broadcasts compared to slow panning shots? Let's not go too far to praise one inferior technology for hiding problems of another one!)
- satysin 4y ago
  You certainly get judder and stutter from projection and you do still get it on plasma it is just to me it is no way near as jarring to the eye as it is on my OLED. Size, as far as I am aware, is not an issue. My OLED is 65" and my final plasma was 60" so similar enough to size plus the same is true on a 55" OLED (and even smaller).
cameronh90 4y ago
> OLED is great but the near instant pixel response means for lower frame rate content such as movies (24p) and most tv shows (25 or 30p) there is stutter One thing to check is that it's not judder from a frame rate mismatch or dodgy motion smoothing. Usually if something is noticeably jarring, it's judder rather than frame rate. It can be notoriously difficult to get these settings to do what you want on most TVs. For me, I always want "no motion smoothing but with automatic dejuddering enabled", which can be almost impossible, or even impossible in the case of some Samsung TVs. Worse, some device/app combinations seem to just introduce their own judder. For example BBC iPlayer is awful for judder and stuttering, and Amazon Prime on Android TV seems to struggle with some shows sometimes. Android TV is a bit janky in general. Apple+ on Apple TV is always perfect. What I normally do to conclusively check for judder is I use the slow motion video on my phone to record at 1/8th to look for duplicated frames or other weirdness. Interestingly, I believe some amount of subtle panning judder is actually created by cinematic filming. Convention is to use a 180 degree shutter, which means each frame only has half the expected motion blur. 180 degrees is usually the best for 24Hz, but it can make certain types of panning shot look a bit unnatural IMO.
- willis936 4y ago
  The issue is that fast pixel response time does not fix a slow refresh rate. Now if you strobe the image then you have a good solution, but most all content is sub 60 Hz and strobing at such low rates is a real headache. Pretty much the only option that can work is temporal interpolation. That's a comparatively huge can of worms. https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/ https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-...
- pjc50 4y ago
  Having watched a number of (old, uploaded) films on Youtube on my TV I've noticed that there can be really serious judder - you don't need a phone to see a frame skip/duplication in a pan, it jumps out and is impossible to not see. I've not done enough investigation to see if this is a defect in the original transfers (have they done a bad 24->30) or if it's the TV trying to force it.
dbttdft 4y ago
Uhh, 24FPS is always choppy, even without judder. Stuttering is not even a possible result of pixel response speeds. Only choppiness. So I assume that's what you mean. The only way to "fix" this is interpolation. So what are you claiming, that some slower pixel response times act as interpolation? Then just interpolate. Insert frame 1.5 (1 and 2 overlayed on top of each other with 50% opacity) between 1 and 2. Still not smooth enough? Just add more interpolation. There is literally no difference between this and slow pixel transitions that supposedly were timed such that they hide the choppiness. You can even do this all in software and hook it up to the TV. And of course OLED TVs can handle this as long as they allow higher refresh rates. Also some OLEDs just have this built in. Enjoy your soap operas. > This isn't an issue with plasma screens as you get some natural motion blur with the pixel response times giving a smoother overall presentation. I thought plasma pixel transitions are as fast as CRT?
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  >24FPS is always choppy Have you been to cinemas?
  - bluescrn 4y ago
    Have you never noticed that a panning camera in a movie is much more juddery than a decent side-scrolling video game? Or that action scenes often lack clarity due to camera shake and related motion blur? Or that the move from HD to 4K is near-worthless without a framerate increase? Maybe it's not bad enough to match your personal definition of 'choppy', but 24fps is an unfortunate compromise made in the days when you had to feed costly physical film into movie cameras. And now everyone is so familiar with 'the cinematic look', we're stuck with 'movies should look like that, as that's how they've always looked', anything different is assumed to be worse, and we're never going to learn how to do high-framerate filmmaking well as the early attempts were so quickly rejected.
    - mitemte 4y ago
      I use an Apple TV to watch all of the content on my TV – streaming services, Plex, apps for TV channels, etc. Since they added the match frame rate feature[0], the judder is eliminated entirely. It's a bit jarring as the screen flashes blank when transitioning from the home screen (60fps) to video content, as the TV's frame rate is adjusted, but it's worth it, IMO. 0. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288
etempleton 4y ago
Yes, this is my exact experience. Plasma is still the best picture for movies because of the superior motion handling of low framerate content.
zepearl 4y ago
> You can somewhat alleviate the stutter on OLEDs using motion processing on low (or using special "cinema" settings on newer models) but it isn't perfect as it introduces slight artifacts... Same here with my ~5 years old LG C6V: in my case it's funny that it has especially a problem with anything that is a bit small and which flies, being birds or helicopters etc... => they're often displayed garbled or with split upper/lower sections. Weird.
ex3ndr 4y ago
it is not shutter, but "ai motion smooth" or whatever it named in LG TV

majormajor 4y ago

How much of this is "pixel response" and how much is size? Newer TVs highly correlate with larger TVs. Want to see judder? Watch a 24fps projection in a huge theater. I've seen jerky panning on big screens through my life, even in the film days (I guess film projection doesn't have any persistenc of image either - but this, to my mind, would still be a rebuttal to the idea that a display with some like a CRT is "better" vs just accidentally blurry in sometimes-useful ways). I don't remember my plasma being any better at this than the LCD that replaced it in the same size, but it's been a long time. I certainly didn't immediately notice anything getting worse (the black levels, on the other hand...). (And what if you want crisp motion, e.g. for 60p sports broadcasts compared to slow panning shots? Let's not go too far to praise one inferior technology for hiding problems of another one!)

satysin 4y ago
You certainly get judder and stutter from projection and you do still get it on plasma it is just to me it is no way near as jarring to the eye as it is on my OLED. Size, as far as I am aware, is not an issue. My OLED is 65" and my final plasma was 60" so similar enough to size plus the same is true on a 55" OLED (and even smaller).

cameronh90 4y ago

> OLED is great but the near instant pixel response means for lower frame rate content such as movies (24p) and most tv shows (25 or 30p) there is stutter One thing to check is that it's not judder from a frame rate mismatch or dodgy motion smoothing. Usually if something is noticeably jarring, it's judder rather than frame rate. It can be notoriously difficult to get these settings to do what you want on most TVs. For me, I always want "no motion smoothing but with automatic dejuddering enabled", which can be almost impossible, or even impossible in the case of some Samsung TVs. Worse, some device/app combinations seem to just introduce their own judder. For example BBC iPlayer is awful for judder and stuttering, and Amazon Prime on Android TV seems to struggle with some shows sometimes. Android TV is a bit janky in general. Apple+ on Apple TV is always perfect. What I normally do to conclusively check for judder is I use the slow motion video on my phone to record at 1/8th to look for duplicated frames or other weirdness. Interestingly, I believe some amount of subtle panning judder is actually created by cinematic filming. Convention is to use a 180 degree shutter, which means each frame only has half the expected motion blur. 180 degrees is usually the best for 24Hz, but it can make certain types of panning shot look a bit unnatural IMO.

willis936 4y ago
The issue is that fast pixel response time does not fix a slow refresh rate. Now if you strobe the image then you have a good solution, but most all content is sub 60 Hz and strobing at such low rates is a real headache. Pretty much the only option that can work is temporal interpolation. That's a comparatively huge can of worms. https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-future-1000hz-displays-with-blurfree-sample-and-hold/ https://blurbusters.com/blur-busters-law-amazing-journey-to-...
pjc50 4y ago
Having watched a number of (old, uploaded) films on Youtube on my TV I've noticed that there can be really serious judder - you don't need a phone to see a frame skip/duplication in a pan, it jumps out and is impossible to not see. I've not done enough investigation to see if this is a defect in the original transfers (have they done a bad 24->30) or if it's the TV trying to force it.

dbttdft 4y ago

Uhh, 24FPS is always choppy, even without judder. Stuttering is not even a possible result of pixel response speeds. Only choppiness. So I assume that's what you mean. The only way to "fix" this is interpolation. So what are you claiming, that some slower pixel response times act as interpolation? Then just interpolate. Insert frame 1.5 (1 and 2 overlayed on top of each other with 50% opacity) between 1 and 2. Still not smooth enough? Just add more interpolation. There is literally no difference between this and slow pixel transitions that supposedly were timed such that they hide the choppiness. You can even do this all in software and hook it up to the TV. And of course OLED TVs can handle this as long as they allow higher refresh rates. Also some OLEDs just have this built in. Enjoy your soap operas. > This isn't an issue with plasma screens as you get some natural motion blur with the pixel response times giving a smoother overall presentation. I thought plasma pixel transitions are as fast as CRT?

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
>24FPS is always choppy Have you been to cinemas?
- bluescrn 4y ago
  Have you never noticed that a panning camera in a movie is much more juddery than a decent side-scrolling video game? Or that action scenes often lack clarity due to camera shake and related motion blur? Or that the move from HD to 4K is near-worthless without a framerate increase? Maybe it's not bad enough to match your personal definition of 'choppy', but 24fps is an unfortunate compromise made in the days when you had to feed costly physical film into movie cameras. And now everyone is so familiar with 'the cinematic look', we're stuck with 'movies should look like that, as that's how they've always looked', anything different is assumed to be worse, and we're never going to learn how to do high-framerate filmmaking well as the early attempts were so quickly rejected.
  - mitemte 4y ago
    I use an Apple TV to watch all of the content on my TV – streaming services, Plex, apps for TV channels, etc. Since they added the match frame rate feature[0], the judder is eliminated entirely. It's a bit jarring as the screen flashes blank when transitioning from the home screen (60fps) to video content, as the TV's frame rate is adjusted, but it's worth it, IMO. 0. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208288

etempleton 4y ago

Yes, this is my exact experience. Plasma is still the best picture for movies because of the superior motion handling of low framerate content.

zepearl 4y ago

> You can somewhat alleviate the stutter on OLEDs using motion processing on low (or using special "cinema" settings on newer models) but it isn't perfect as it introduces slight artifacts... Same here with my ~5 years old LG C6V: in my case it's funny that it has especially a problem with anything that is a bit small and which flies, being birds or helicopters etc... => they're often displayed garbled or with split upper/lower sections. Weird.

ex3ndr 4y ago

it is not shutter, but "ai motion smooth" or whatever it named in LG TV