7 ms·

Outdoor Sound Propagation in the U.S. Civil War (1999)

111 points by sdenton4 4y ago

Domobran7 4y ago
That is really interesting. Honestly, I had never even thought about it until now, but now it reminded me of how Titanic may have sunk due to fatamorgana. Weather really does play major role in human history, even when you don't see or expect it.
- balentio 4y ago
polishdude20 4y ago
"Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland" Wait how is this possible?
- stevenwoo 4y ago
  Weather inversion where the sound the travels slightly faster and farther in different temperature air medium plus reflection of waves that would normally dissipate to upper atmosphere if I read this correctly. http://spectrums.com/sound-and-the-weather/ http://spectrums.com/sound-and-the-weather/
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- duskwuff 4y ago
  In this context, "guns" probably means cannon, not small arms like rifles or pistols.
  - bragr 4y ago
    Even still, cannon fire from 250+ miles (at least, that's just to the border) seems improbable
    - vidanay 4y ago
      And there's my weekly reminder that the British Isles are SMALL.
      - galangalalgol 4y ago
        No kidding! I was on the interstate this last week and a sign showed more than twice that distance just to the next major city in the state. (along that highway, there were closer ones in other directions)
      - pessimizer 4y ago
        There's a saying that goes something like "Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Europeans think 100 miles is a long way."
    - R0b0t1 4y ago
      Seems plausible base on my experiences outdoors, but it heavily depends on ambient conditions. Over such large distances I think the unlikely part is you do that trick twice, but even that is plausible merely by looking at seasonal changes.
    - _8j50 4y ago
      Umm...no, you've never heard heavy artillery fire then? It won't be loud, more like a disant thunder but i know for a fact it can be heard in 100-150mile range. No idea how altitude, weather, geography and other factors can extend this range but I wouldn't discount it without knowing more facts.
      - ImprovedSilence 4y ago
        yeah, from experience, wind direction can definitely play a larger part in how far sound travels than is immediately obvious too.
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    Definitely, in that period "guns" always meant artillery.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  It seems a bit odd, huh? I found on google: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jun-24-me-49796-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jun-24-me-49796... Interestingly similar phrase: > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not across a wide region in between. > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not in wide areas of northern England. Searching the exact phrase > "Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland" Turned up a couple sites, one from the national academies press https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/25226/chapter/3 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/25226/chapter/3 but it appears in a "background" section of a work on highway engineering, not cited. The other sites seemed like maybe sketchy textbook sharing sites, so I didn't check them out. Seems like maybe a popular bit of questionable trivia?
  - schmendreck 4y ago
  - pyuser583 4y ago
    > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not in wide areas of northern England. It’s possible for a bird to fly in a straight line from London to Scotland without flying over northern England. That line of flight would go over the Irish Sea instead of north England. Sound traveling over water faces fewer obstructions. London -> Liverpool is 178 miles. Liverpool -> Kirkcudbright 107 (over water!) Total 285 miles, 107 of which are over water, and none over northern England.
    - thread_id 4y ago
      - sporkland 4y ago
        I don't know that.
      - deleted 4y ago
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Probably the atmospheric version of SOFAR; thermal layers in the atmosphere acting as a wave guide for very low frequency sound waves. In the ocean, the sound of explosions can travel thousands of miles in the SOFAR channel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel
- analog31 4y ago
  Less background noise, and better hearing, may have been factors.
balentio 4y ago
This is a not widely documented Civil War phenomenon, but happens probably quite often without people knowing it since by definition, it is the ABSENCE of sound that has to be noticed.
hirundo 4y ago
If your network is good enough to gather a microphone's data from each soldier/drone on the battlefield, you could centrally assemble a very accurate location and type on any weapon fired and other ambient sound. That data could be used to evaluate risks and return fire accurately within milliseconds. It could give a general a lack of fog-of-war only available before in simulations.
- bragr 4y ago
  I'm not sure this is true given the inaccuracy of shotspotter
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    I think shotspotter's problems are more political than technical. Not to say they don't have technical challenges too: better sensors than the human ear turn out to be fairly easy, but interpreting that data is still hard. Brains are complicated, "hearing" is a process contributed to by nearly every layer of meat that reacts to sound. The human ability to notice a new noise in the cacophony of everyday life is really an amazing trick if you think about it.
    - sdenton4 4y ago
      I know a non-shotspotter effort to identify gunshot sound in a very different context which also is having a very hard time; there is a real unsolved technical problem here. And it makes me think that ID'ing gun model from audio - which will be harder than simply identifying the existence of gunfire - is going to be very difficult.
  - closewith 4y ago
    Possibly with small calibre weapons in urban areas. Sound ranging is a solved and reliable way of identifying artillery locations and was the gold standard until counter-battery radar was developed during WW2. It's still in service with all major militaries (in the West, largely using BAE HALO) as it's a completely passive sensor system and therefore not subject to attack from HARM.
jchanimal 4y ago
Similar historic outcome. I was in the room for Howard‘s Dean “scream“. which basically ended his campaign. As far as I can tell the cause was not enough attention paid to the microphone sound reinforcement. He had to push too hard to be heard in the raucous room.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  Did it sound weird in the room, or was it only on the recording?
- arminiusreturns 4y ago
  I'd like to find the history of declaring that scream ended his campaign. Since you were there, did anyone in the crowd react in that manner afterwards, or was it really just an excuse the media used to lambast him artificially (which is what it felt like to me)?
  - nl 4y ago
    I followed the campaign through the media at the time. His campaign had already started going downhill at the time. The context of the rally where that occurred was that he'd finished 3rd in the Iowa Caucus, which was a bad result. The scream was something that went viral and made him appear pretty odd which didn't help. https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a41615/the-dean-scream-oral-history/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a41615/the-dean-scream... is pretty good.
  - leviathant 4y ago
    When it happened, by the media coverage, you would have thought he dropped his pants in the middle of a preschool or something. There was this almost uniform narrative that this 'scream' was crazy and it baffled me. These people all know how microphones and live events work, and it really felt like a concerted effort to drag the guy down - particularly given how gaffe-prone Bush was (putting it lightly), and especially given the whole Trump thing. 24-year-old me felt like it was a media drive-by, and I don't subscribe to the "big bad media" narrative that a lot of folks do. (I worked for a newspaper for a while, local journalism is especially important, which is why it's been targeted and gutted, but I digress) Later - I can't remember where - I saw a series of shorts that broke down these pivotal moments. Dukakis in the tank, Dan Quayle and potato, the Dean Scream, and others. It painted a much more nuanced picture around complications within the organization of the campaign that were playing behind the scenes, and with or without the scream, Kerry was playing a much stronger game, apparently. I feel like Howard Dean might have even contributed to the documentary. It was really interesting, I wish I could remember the context of these shorts. "Did anyone in the crowd react in that manner" - I remember accounts from the time saying that in the room, it wasn't weird at all. Everyone was pumped. None of that changes my mind that media supersaturated the scream. Late night shows, NPR, cable news, and I'm sure conservative media in particular were going to town.
prenoob 4y ago
OT but related: if the subject matter is of interest to you you may enjoy this book -> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Battlefield_Acoustics/OsClBwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/Battlefield_Acoustics/O...
nl 4y ago
By comparison, the Krakatoa eruption was heard 4800 km (3000 miles) away, and was measured at 172 decibels 160 km (99 miles) away[1] [1] https://www.bksv.com/en/knowledge/blog/perspectives/krakatoa-eruption-sound https://www.bksv.com/en/knowledge/blog/perspectives/krakatoa...
sammalloy 4y ago
Some areas are famous for acoustic shadows or anomalies. There’s a place in Lake Tahoe called Granlibakken that used to have one of these during the summer, with the sound of what was occurring at the base bouncing off of the mountain and being blocked in some areas.
bad416f1f5a2 4y ago
I would be very interested to see how this analysis controls for human factors: plenty of generals in the US civil war were, with the evidence of historical analysis, incompetent (think: Buell) or borderline sympathetic to the enemy (McClellan) Might “I’d’ve attacked had I heard them!” be a convenient after the fact rationalization?
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  There's a boatload of other staffers nearby, to say nothing of individual soldiers who might have their own account of what they heard. It seems unlikely that a general would really get away with, "oh I didn't hear it" when everyone else there clearly did. I mean, they might escape court martial, but everyone there will know they're full of it.

111 points by sdenton4 4y ago

That is really interesting. Honestly, I had never even thought about it until now, but now it reminded me of how Titanic may have sunk due to fatamorgana. Weather really does play major role in human history, even when you don't see or expect it.

balentio 4y ago

polishdude20 4y ago

"Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland" Wait how is this possible?

stevenwoo 4y ago
Weather inversion where the sound the travels slightly faster and farther in different temperature air medium plus reflection of waves that would normally dissipate to upper atmosphere if I read this correctly. http://spectrums.com/sound-and-the-weather/ http://spectrums.com/sound-and-the-weather/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
duskwuff 4y ago
In this context, "guns" probably means cannon, not small arms like rifles or pistols.
- bragr 4y ago
  Even still, cannon fire from 250+ miles (at least, that's just to the border) seems improbable
  - vidanay 4y ago
    And there's my weekly reminder that the British Isles are SMALL.
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      No kidding! I was on the interstate this last week and a sign showed more than twice that distance just to the next major city in the state. (along that highway, there were closer ones in other directions)
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      There's a saying that goes something like "Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Europeans think 100 miles is a long way."
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    Seems plausible base on my experiences outdoors, but it heavily depends on ambient conditions. Over such large distances I think the unlikely part is you do that trick twice, but even that is plausible merely by looking at seasonal changes.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Umm...no, you've never heard heavy artillery fire then? It won't be loud, more like a disant thunder but i know for a fact it can be heard in 100-150mile range. No idea how altitude, weather, geography and other factors can extend this range but I wouldn't discount it without knowing more facts.
    - ImprovedSilence 4y ago
      yeah, from experience, wind direction can definitely play a larger part in how far sound travels than is immediately obvious too.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  Definitely, in that period "guns" always meant artillery.
bee_rider 4y ago
It seems a bit odd, huh? I found on google: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jun-24-me-49796-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-jun-24-me-49796... Interestingly similar phrase: > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not across a wide region in between. > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not in wide areas of northern England. Searching the exact phrase > "Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland" Turned up a couple sites, one from the national academies press https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/25226/chapter/3 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/25226/chapter/3 but it appears in a "background" section of a work on highway engineering, not cited. The other sites seemed like maybe sketchy textbook sharing sites, so I didn't check them out. Seems like maybe a popular bit of questionable trivia?
- schmendreck 4y ago
- pyuser583 4y ago
  > Guns fired at the funeral of Queen Victoria in London in 1901 were heard in Scotland, but not in wide areas of northern England. It’s possible for a bird to fly in a straight line from London to Scotland without flying over northern England. That line of flight would go over the Irish Sea instead of north England. Sound traveling over water faces fewer obstructions. London -> Liverpool is 178 miles. Liverpool -> Kirkcudbright 107 (over water!) Total 285 miles, 107 of which are over water, and none over northern England.
  - thread_id 4y ago
    - sporkland 4y ago
      I don't know that.
    - deleted 4y ago
MichaelCollins 4y ago
Probably the atmospheric version of SOFAR; thermal layers in the atmosphere acting as a wave guide for very low frequency sound waves. In the ocean, the sound of explosions can travel thousands of miles in the SOFAR channel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel
analog31 4y ago
Less background noise, and better hearing, may have been factors.

balentio 4y ago

This is a not widely documented Civil War phenomenon, but happens probably quite often without people knowing it since by definition, it is the ABSENCE of sound that has to be noticed.

hirundo 4y ago

If your network is good enough to gather a microphone's data from each soldier/drone on the battlefield, you could centrally assemble a very accurate location and type on any weapon fired and other ambient sound. That data could be used to evaluate risks and return fire accurately within milliseconds. It could give a general a lack of fog-of-war only available before in simulations.

bragr 4y ago
I'm not sure this is true given the inaccuracy of shotspotter
- h2odragon 4y ago
  I think shotspotter's problems are more political than technical. Not to say they don't have technical challenges too: better sensors than the human ear turn out to be fairly easy, but interpreting that data is still hard. Brains are complicated, "hearing" is a process contributed to by nearly every layer of meat that reacts to sound. The human ability to notice a new noise in the cacophony of everyday life is really an amazing trick if you think about it.
  - sdenton4 4y ago
    I know a non-shotspotter effort to identify gunshot sound in a very different context which also is having a very hard time; there is a real unsolved technical problem here. And it makes me think that ID'ing gun model from audio - which will be harder than simply identifying the existence of gunfire - is going to be very difficult.
- closewith 4y ago
  Possibly with small calibre weapons in urban areas. Sound ranging is a solved and reliable way of identifying artillery locations and was the gold standard until counter-battery radar was developed during WW2. It's still in service with all major militaries (in the West, largely using BAE HALO) as it's a completely passive sensor system and therefore not subject to attack from HARM.

jchanimal 4y ago

Similar historic outcome. I was in the room for Howard‘s Dean “scream“. which basically ended his campaign. As far as I can tell the cause was not enough attention paid to the microphone sound reinforcement. He had to push too hard to be heard in the raucous room.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
chrisseaton 4y ago
Did it sound weird in the room, or was it only on the recording?
arminiusreturns 4y ago
I'd like to find the history of declaring that scream ended his campaign. Since you were there, did anyone in the crowd react in that manner afterwards, or was it really just an excuse the media used to lambast him artificially (which is what it felt like to me)?
- nl 4y ago
  I followed the campaign through the media at the time. His campaign had already started going downhill at the time. The context of the rally where that occurred was that he'd finished 3rd in the Iowa Caucus, which was a bad result. The scream was something that went viral and made him appear pretty odd which didn't help. https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a41615/the-dean-scream-oral-history/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a41615/the-dean-scream... is pretty good.
- leviathant 4y ago
  When it happened, by the media coverage, you would have thought he dropped his pants in the middle of a preschool or something. There was this almost uniform narrative that this 'scream' was crazy and it baffled me. These people all know how microphones and live events work, and it really felt like a concerted effort to drag the guy down - particularly given how gaffe-prone Bush was (putting it lightly), and especially given the whole Trump thing. 24-year-old me felt like it was a media drive-by, and I don't subscribe to the "big bad media" narrative that a lot of folks do. (I worked for a newspaper for a while, local journalism is especially important, which is why it's been targeted and gutted, but I digress) Later - I can't remember where - I saw a series of shorts that broke down these pivotal moments. Dukakis in the tank, Dan Quayle and potato, the Dean Scream, and others. It painted a much more nuanced picture around complications within the organization of the campaign that were playing behind the scenes, and with or without the scream, Kerry was playing a much stronger game, apparently. I feel like Howard Dean might have even contributed to the documentary. It was really interesting, I wish I could remember the context of these shorts. "Did anyone in the crowd react in that manner" - I remember accounts from the time saying that in the room, it wasn't weird at all. Everyone was pumped. None of that changes my mind that media supersaturated the scream. Late night shows, NPR, cable news, and I'm sure conservative media in particular were going to town.

prenoob 4y ago

OT but related: if the subject matter is of interest to you you may enjoy this book -> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Battlefield_Acoustics/OsClBwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/Battlefield_Acoustics/O...

nl 4y ago

By comparison, the Krakatoa eruption was heard 4800 km (3000 miles) away, and was measured at 172 decibels 160 km (99 miles) away[1] [1] https://www.bksv.com/en/knowledge/blog/perspectives/krakatoa-eruption-sound https://www.bksv.com/en/knowledge/blog/perspectives/krakatoa...

sammalloy 4y ago

Some areas are famous for acoustic shadows or anomalies. There’s a place in Lake Tahoe called Granlibakken that used to have one of these during the summer, with the sound of what was occurring at the base bouncing off of the mountain and being blocked in some areas.

bad416f1f5a2 4y ago

I would be very interested to see how this analysis controls for human factors: plenty of generals in the US civil war were, with the evidence of historical analysis, incompetent (think: Buell) or borderline sympathetic to the enemy (McClellan) Might “I’d’ve attacked had I heard them!” be a convenient after the fact rationalization?

andrewflnr 4y ago
There's a boatload of other staffers nearby, to say nothing of individual soldiers who might have their own account of what they heard. It seems unlikely that a general would really get away with, "oh I didn't hear it" when everyone else there clearly did. I mean, they might escape court martial, but everyone there will know they're full of it.