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What war? This is about user privacy. Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy. Facebook is just mad that they

What war? This is about user privacy. Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy. Facebook is just mad that they can’t microtarget you on iOS anymore.

tmpz22 4y ago
Yeah Apple’s Board of Executives put all profit motive aside and are sacrificing for our privacy.
- cloudking 4y ago
  Right.. Apple isn't playing 4D chess to challenge Facebook's Ad business. https://www.axios.com/2022/08/21/apple-advertising-privacy-tracking-iphone https://www.axios.com/2022/08/21/apple-advertising-privacy-t...
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance.
  - robch 4y ago
    > I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance. The reason Apple doesn't want targeted third party ads is so that they are the only ones that can sell targeted ads to their users. Their platform, their rules. For now at least.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      Apple was never going to add Google or Facebook ads into the App Store or News+. And iOS/OSX users will still see targeted ads whenever they open their browser or third party apps. The apps just need to either (a) ask the user for permission to track or (b) authenticate them.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - zip1234 4y ago
    Apple nerfed everyone else's ads to grow their own ad business. Apple's version of privacy is that if Apple has the data it is private, but if anyone else does it is not private. Just go read Apple's TOS. They collect browsing history, location data, etc. For everyone else they just put it behind a setting. Not for their own data collection though.
Tijdreiziger 4y ago
Meanwhile, Apple collects the same types of user data as Google [1], and wants to grow its advertising business [2]. [1] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-aapl-set-to-expand-advertising-bringing-ads-to-maps-tv-and-books-apps-l6tdqqmg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-...
- dwaite 4y ago
  First party data collection and use is not the same as third-party tracking. I have relationships with Apple and Google. The line around what data usage is appropriate with those companies somewhat nebulous, and also somewhat a personal decision. For instance - the paper you site shows that Apple and Google send location data from devices to the server. Those devices also both ship with functionality for things like mapping and local weather. So for iOS, you have to approve sharing location data (even for the built-in weather app and maps app) on an app-by-app basis. Android has gotten better about this over the years, but I don't know current state. Facebook is (was) correlating detailed profiles of users who had no relationship with Facebook, through interactions with third parties that were not part of Facebook, and without disclosure. That is a much simpler line to draw. Even then, Apple gave the user choice - and the users almost universally chose not to give that capability.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    > Even then, Apple gave the user choice Interestingly, Apple puts tracking for its own apps behind another setting that ignores the global setting. Unlike its competitors, Apple does not give users a choice about whether to send location data to Apple (if you want to see your location at all) or about whether to send app install and search information to Apple. Apple's devices are worse on privacy on every axis when you consider whether they give users a choice.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      a) Apple does give a choice about whether to send location data. It's in System Services within the Privacy section and consists of 18 checkboxes. Do you have evidence that with all of these disabled they are still capturing location data ? b) How would the App Store even work at all if they didn't store your purchases.
croes 4y ago
It's about users' money. Apple's take on privacy is the same as FB's. If user data stays at Apple/FB it's private. But that's not privacy at all. Any additional confidant besides the sender and the recipient is a breach of privacy. You wouldn't let it count as respecting privacy either if the post office read all your letters and stored the texts.
- dwaite 4y ago
  Different tiers. Facebook is impacted by third-party tracking - such capturing information and generating profiles for people, even those without Facebook accounts. They would do this via Facebook javascript and Facebook native app SDKs. Apple's solution was App Tracking Transparency - a user consent on whether to provide a handy identifier to use for correlation across apps, and App Store rules which ban tracking using other mechanisms (such as IP address correlation). For apps outside the store (e.g. web apps), the privacy proxy stuff and third-party state isolation/blocking are used to greatly reduce such correlation. For first-party data collection, storage and sharing, there are consents for sharing information from the device (location, contacts, health information, and so on). There is also a privacy label (which App Store rules require to be accurate) on what data collected by an app used, for what purpose, and whether that use is linked to you or anonymized. So a post office app that read the letters and stored the text would say that 'user content' was captured, and whether or not it was 'linked to you'.
  - croes 4y ago
    It's not about Apps it's about privacy, about the data that Apple gets and stores. It's not privacy if only Apple has it, it's privacy if even Apple hasn't it
  - justapassenger 4y ago
    How many people do you think make an informed consent decision? 0.001% is my guess. Apple is playing dirty. Less dirty than Facebook, but that’s not a high bar.
    - 4y ago
smoldesu 4y ago
And how do you feel about the data that Apple collects and stores? Both companies are operated by scumbags who don't give a rat's ass about your personal privacy, it's a 'battle' in the sense that neither company can agree who should profit off of advertising.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  Apple, because of their proclaimed fealty to user privacy clearly have the most to lose if they should violate that bond.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    They already have. Apple complies with hundreds of thousands of federal data requests every year, they send messages back to HQ every time you launch an app, they help China hunt down religious minorities, they give the FBI access to iCloud data without a warrant, they collect a list of unique identifiers for every photo on your phone, and at the end of the day you're still vulnerable to exploits like Pegasus and RCE through iMessage image decoders. If you think Apple hasn't violated that promise, you must have an extremely selective definition of privacy.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Any company’s “proclaimed fealty” is just marketing copy!
gloryjulio 4y ago
> Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy. Just like android?

tmpz22 4y ago

Yeah Apple’s Board of Executives put all profit motive aside and are sacrificing for our privacy.

cloudking 4y ago
Right.. Apple isn't playing 4D chess to challenge Facebook's Ad business. https://www.axios.com/2022/08/21/apple-advertising-privacy-tracking-iphone https://www.axios.com/2022/08/21/apple-advertising-privacy-t...
JKCalhoun 4y ago
I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance.
- robch 4y ago
  > I don't see those as mutually exclusive. Apple seems to believe that a company that values a user's privacy can make a profit from that stance. The reason Apple doesn't want targeted third party ads is so that they are the only ones that can sell targeted ads to their users. Their platform, their rules. For now at least.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    Apple was never going to add Google or Facebook ads into the App Store or News+. And iOS/OSX users will still see targeted ads whenever they open their browser or third party apps. The apps just need to either (a) ask the user for permission to track or (b) authenticate them.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- zip1234 4y ago
  Apple nerfed everyone else's ads to grow their own ad business. Apple's version of privacy is that if Apple has the data it is private, but if anyone else does it is not private. Just go read Apple's TOS. They collect browsing history, location data, etc. For everyone else they just put it behind a setting. Not for their own data collection though.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

Meanwhile, Apple collects the same types of user data as Google [1], and wants to grow its advertising business [2]. [1] https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-aapl-set-to-expand-advertising-bringing-ads-to-maps-tv-and-books-apps-l6tdqqmg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2022-08-14/apple-...

dwaite 4y ago
First party data collection and use is not the same as third-party tracking. I have relationships with Apple and Google. The line around what data usage is appropriate with those companies somewhat nebulous, and also somewhat a personal decision. For instance - the paper you site shows that Apple and Google send location data from devices to the server. Those devices also both ship with functionality for things like mapping and local weather. So for iOS, you have to approve sharing location data (even for the built-in weather app and maps app) on an app-by-app basis. Android has gotten better about this over the years, but I don't know current state. Facebook is (was) correlating detailed profiles of users who had no relationship with Facebook, through interactions with third parties that were not part of Facebook, and without disclosure. That is a much simpler line to draw. Even then, Apple gave the user choice - and the users almost universally chose not to give that capability.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  > Even then, Apple gave the user choice Interestingly, Apple puts tracking for its own apps behind another setting that ignores the global setting. Unlike its competitors, Apple does not give users a choice about whether to send location data to Apple (if you want to see your location at all) or about whether to send app install and search information to Apple. Apple's devices are worse on privacy on every axis when you consider whether they give users a choice.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    a) Apple does give a choice about whether to send location data. It's in System Services within the Privacy section and consists of 18 checkboxes. Do you have evidence that with all of these disabled they are still capturing location data ? b) How would the App Store even work at all if they didn't store your purchases.

croes 4y ago

It's about users' money. Apple's take on privacy is the same as FB's. If user data stays at Apple/FB it's private. But that's not privacy at all. Any additional confidant besides the sender and the recipient is a breach of privacy. You wouldn't let it count as respecting privacy either if the post office read all your letters and stored the texts.

dwaite 4y ago
Different tiers. Facebook is impacted by third-party tracking - such capturing information and generating profiles for people, even those without Facebook accounts. They would do this via Facebook javascript and Facebook native app SDKs. Apple's solution was App Tracking Transparency - a user consent on whether to provide a handy identifier to use for correlation across apps, and App Store rules which ban tracking using other mechanisms (such as IP address correlation). For apps outside the store (e.g. web apps), the privacy proxy stuff and third-party state isolation/blocking are used to greatly reduce such correlation. For first-party data collection, storage and sharing, there are consents for sharing information from the device (location, contacts, health information, and so on). There is also a privacy label (which App Store rules require to be accurate) on what data collected by an app used, for what purpose, and whether that use is linked to you or anonymized. So a post office app that read the letters and stored the text would say that 'user content' was captured, and whether or not it was 'linked to you'.
- croes 4y ago
  It's not about Apps it's about privacy, about the data that Apple gets and stores. It's not privacy if only Apple has it, it's privacy if even Apple hasn't it
- justapassenger 4y ago
  How many people do you think make an informed consent decision? 0.001% is my guess. Apple is playing dirty. Less dirty than Facebook, but that’s not a high bar.
  - 4y ago

smoldesu 4y ago

And how do you feel about the data that Apple collects and stores? Both companies are operated by scumbags who don't give a rat's ass about your personal privacy, it's a 'battle' in the sense that neither company can agree who should profit off of advertising.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
Apple, because of their proclaimed fealty to user privacy clearly have the most to lose if they should violate that bond.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  They already have. Apple complies with hundreds of thousands of federal data requests every year, they send messages back to HQ every time you launch an app, they help China hunt down religious minorities, they give the FBI access to iCloud data without a warrant, they collect a list of unique identifiers for every photo on your phone, and at the end of the day you're still vulnerable to exploits like Pegasus and RCE through iMessage image decoders. If you think Apple hasn't violated that promise, you must have an extremely selective definition of privacy.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Any company’s “proclaimed fealty” is just marketing copy!

gloryjulio 4y ago

> Apple implemented replacement APIs allowing for tracking that doesn’t impinge user privacy. Just like android?