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> The belief that all problems can become objective provided enough data is measured is the problem. Reality exists. There are objective answers to management

> The belief that all problems can become objective provided enough data is measured is the problem. Reality exists. There are objective answers to management problems. There may not be a unique right answer, and which answers are objectively correct depends on the people involved far more than any oversimplified metric, but that does not make them subjective. It's objectively true that in any long term problem with difficult to measure outcomes giving people agency, allowing them to own their work, respecting them, and communicating in whichever way is appropriate to the particular situation is more effective than trying to treat them like a pocket calculator and maximizing some kpi that isn't even related to the output you want. The term you are searching for is solvable by an algorithm or measurable, which they are objectively not. I'm fond of Goodheart's law as a rule of thumb as well as keeping in mind the maxim that any measurement both has a cost and is an interaction with the system being measured and thus must change it.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
> which answers are objectively correct depends on the people involved This is the almost the very definition of subjective. However, I do take your point about problems that are objective but that are not measurable or solvable by metrics and algorithms. I would add that to my list of problems for which managers will use the metrics tool, even though it won't and can't work and causing frustration for everyone who is relying on them and/or have to collect the metrics data.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  > This is the almost the very definition of subjective. The implication is that the manager is the subject if the object is their interaction with the employee. Thus the answer would be fully internal to the manager if it were subjective. Of course which answer is correct depends on which problem you are solving. By that metric every problem is subjective.
deterministic 4y ago
> There are objective answers to management problems That is something you believe to be true. And something I believe to not be true. Have you ever managed large teams of developers? I have. For many years. And I was very successful doing it. However there was no “objective” way for me to manage the teams. Humans are complex. And the interaction of team members even more so. I have never seen an “objective” metric applied to a team that actually worked without unexpected negative consequences and/or without being gamed by smart team members. If you have an example of an objective metric that has actually worked in reality without negative side effects and without being gamed I would like to hear it.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Objective does not reducible to a metric. It means when given an object (a team of developers and your relationships wih them) then there is a space of correct answers (ie. not reducing those interactions to a metric) and a space of wrong answers (ie. trying to start an orgy every day). Your real name is subjective (it depends only on what you decide it is) Your favourite colour is subjective Whether you like a piece of art, think it's good or think it achieved what was intend€d is subjective The meaning of a piece of art is objective but not reducible to a metric and maybe not unique. This assertion that things are objective if and only if simple models based on overly reductive metrics are the only correct tool for thinking about them is incredibly wrong and destructive.
  - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
    How the totality of possible choices are sorted into the correct and wrong answer spaces is subjective. Although there are many that will be sorted the same independent of the manager, there are others that will be sorted specifically because of the manager (the subject). One manager will decide one way because of their internal thought processes, and another may decide the opposite. This then means that some (but not all) management choices are in fact subjective.
    - Schroedingersat 4y ago

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago

> which answers are objectively correct depends on the people involved This is the almost the very definition of subjective. However, I do take your point about problems that are objective but that are not measurable or solvable by metrics and algorithms. I would add that to my list of problems for which managers will use the metrics tool, even though it won't and can't work and causing frustration for everyone who is relying on them and/or have to collect the metrics data.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
> This is the almost the very definition of subjective. The implication is that the manager is the subject if the object is their interaction with the employee. Thus the answer would be fully internal to the manager if it were subjective. Of course which answer is correct depends on which problem you are solving. By that metric every problem is subjective.

deterministic 4y ago

> There are objective answers to management problems That is something you believe to be true. And something I believe to not be true. Have you ever managed large teams of developers? I have. For many years. And I was very successful doing it. However there was no “objective” way for me to manage the teams. Humans are complex. And the interaction of team members even more so. I have never seen an “objective” metric applied to a team that actually worked without unexpected negative consequences and/or without being gamed by smart team members. If you have an example of an objective metric that has actually worked in reality without negative side effects and without being gamed I would like to hear it.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
Objective does not reducible to a metric. It means when given an object (a team of developers and your relationships wih them) then there is a space of correct answers (ie. not reducing those interactions to a metric) and a space of wrong answers (ie. trying to start an orgy every day). Your real name is subjective (it depends only on what you decide it is) Your favourite colour is subjective Whether you like a piece of art, think it's good or think it achieved what was intend€d is subjective The meaning of a piece of art is objective but not reducible to a metric and maybe not unique. This assertion that things are objective if and only if simple models based on overly reductive metrics are the only correct tool for thinking about them is incredibly wrong and destructive.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
  How the totality of possible choices are sorted into the correct and wrong answer spaces is subjective. Although there are many that will be sorted the same independent of the manager, there are others that will be sorted specifically because of the manager (the subject). One manager will decide one way because of their internal thought processes, and another may decide the opposite. This then means that some (but not all) management choices are in fact subjective.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago