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> As a European, it has always been perplexing to me how little the US invests in teachers and schools, given that we know how huge the benefits are down the ro

> As a European, it has always been perplexing to me how little the US invests in teachers and schools, given that we know how huge the benefits are down the road (educational attainment, income, pro-social behavior, life satisfaction). 1) European perspectives on a lot of American problems miss one of the biggest differences between us: you have a lot more of a homogeneous population. There's numerous differences between designing a school system for basically all Hungarian or all Norwegian kids, for example, and figuring out what the hell you can do with a school mixed with Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites with all different levels of interests, drive, and ability. 2) You've made a few statements of objective fact here without backing them up. Does the US actually invest little in education? I suspect that a lot of the money is of course wasted, but they do spend a crapload of money, and I'd bet dramatically more than many other countries. As another thing, does increasing spending (as the only variable that changes) lead to dramatic differences in educational outcomes? To a point, I'm sure it helps, but at some point, I think it doesn't. As an example, a young Forest Gump might be able to pass Basic Arithmetic in his elementary school if given a private tutor who gave him their full attention and effort, but there's no universe in which Forrest Gump gets an A+ in Advanced Calculus even if he's given 1,000 of the best teachers in the world to personally tutor him 24/7. 3) There's an age old debate about Nature vs. Nurture, which of course will not be settled here today. But I'd like to point out that if "Nature" is generally the most important variable in success, then beyond a certain point, there's a level of diminishing returns with education spending and simply throwing money at schools is not a wise course. Just throwing more money at a problem is, I suspect, the path we've taken up until now.

Ekaros 4y ago
1) Do those really have that big difference? Should they? I could see a point if we were discussing first or second generation immigrants. Specially not those from highly educated parents. Coming from Finland which did rather well with much less hours spend it might as well be systematic issue. Maybe process of the teaching itself has something wrong.
- rr808 4y ago
  Are Finland's schools like my city? 30% of its children descendants of slaves? + 10% illegal immigrants? A good few percent homeless, parents in jail and/or hard drug addicts. 20% with both parents working 100 hours between them. Some bring guns to school. Teaching isn't all about teaching.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    30% descendants of slaves? You mean their parents were slaves? I really recommend you moving out of such third world society. If they had slavery this millennia they can not be saved.
    - rr808 4y ago
      Not parents, descendants. Yes its been 150 years, but the scars still haven't healed. > I really recommend you moving out of such third world society. Well this is the challenge in America and why Finland's education system has it easy. The teaching in Finland doesn't have to be good to beat an average US student.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Beltalowda 4y ago
> There's numerous differences between designing a school system for basically all Hungarian or all Norwegian kids, for example, and figuring out what the hell you can do with a school mixed with Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites with all different levels of interests, drive, and ability. Why would Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites all require a radically different education? It seems to me that math is math, your country's history is your country's history, biology is biology, etc. I understand there are cultural differences between different population groups, but that's hardly unique to the US; Europe has differences and minority groups, too.
- csa 4y ago
  > It seems to me that math is math, your country's history is your country's history, biology is biology, etc. You would think, but somehow we Americans have found a way to make this question much more difficult than it initially seems (or needs to be, imho).
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > Why would Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites all require a radically different education? We can't completely discuss the reasons for different educational outcomes between population groups in America in a civilized forum such as HN, so let's only mention that different educational outcomes between groups exist. Since different population groups have different educational outcomes in a multicultural society, the groups that are left behind will always feel slighted and resentful and the educational system would have to be continuously redesigned to accommodate the least common denominator, IMO in a fashion resembling the famous Harrison Bergeron short story. In basically every city with a substantial multicultural society in America in recent years, you can find articles similar to this. > Boston Public Schools Suspend Advanced Program Because Officials Were ‘Disturbed’ By The Number Of Asian And White Students https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/26/boston-public-schools-advanced-work-classes-program-antiracism-white-asian-students/ https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/26/boston-public-schools-adv... > Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs in New York https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/26/nyregion/gifted-programs-nyc-desegregation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/26/nyregion/gifted-programs-... > To Address Inequity, Let's Do More Than Eliminate 'Gifted And Talented' Programs https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-address-inequity-lets-do-more-than-eliminate-gifted-and-talented-programs/?sh=12e2b62555ae https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-add... Europe doesn't have to account for this kind of thing anywhere near the level that America does. Their educational systems can largely focus on what's best for education.

Ekaros 4y ago

1) Do those really have that big difference? Should they? I could see a point if we were discussing first or second generation immigrants. Specially not those from highly educated parents. Coming from Finland which did rather well with much less hours spend it might as well be systematic issue. Maybe process of the teaching itself has something wrong.

rr808 4y ago
Are Finland's schools like my city? 30% of its children descendants of slaves? + 10% illegal immigrants? A good few percent homeless, parents in jail and/or hard drug addicts. 20% with both parents working 100 hours between them. Some bring guns to school. Teaching isn't all about teaching.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  30% descendants of slaves? You mean their parents were slaves? I really recommend you moving out of such third world society. If they had slavery this millennia they can not be saved.
  - rr808 4y ago
    Not parents, descendants. Yes its been 150 years, but the scars still haven't healed. > I really recommend you moving out of such third world society. Well this is the challenge in America and why Finland's education system has it easy. The teaching in Finland doesn't have to be good to beat an average US student.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Beltalowda 4y ago

> There's numerous differences between designing a school system for basically all Hungarian or all Norwegian kids, for example, and figuring out what the hell you can do with a school mixed with Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites with all different levels of interests, drive, and ability. Why would Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites all require a radically different education? It seems to me that math is math, your country's history is your country's history, biology is biology, etc. I understand there are cultural differences between different population groups, but that's hardly unique to the US; Europe has differences and minority groups, too.

csa 4y ago
> It seems to me that math is math, your country's history is your country's history, biology is biology, etc. You would think, but somehow we Americans have found a way to make this question much more difficult than it initially seems (or needs to be, imho).
logicalmonster 4y ago
> Why would Latinos, Asians, Blacks, and Whites all require a radically different education? We can't completely discuss the reasons for different educational outcomes between population groups in America in a civilized forum such as HN, so let's only mention that different educational outcomes between groups exist. Since different population groups have different educational outcomes in a multicultural society, the groups that are left behind will always feel slighted and resentful and the educational system would have to be continuously redesigned to accommodate the least common denominator, IMO in a fashion resembling the famous Harrison Bergeron short story. In basically every city with a substantial multicultural society in America in recent years, you can find articles similar to this. > Boston Public Schools Suspend Advanced Program Because Officials Were ‘Disturbed’ By The Number Of Asian And White Students https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/26/boston-public-schools-advanced-work-classes-program-antiracism-white-asian-students/ https://dailycaller.com/2021/02/26/boston-public-schools-adv... > Desegregation Plan: Eliminate All Gifted Programs in New York https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/26/nyregion/gifted-programs-nyc-desegregation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/26/nyregion/gifted-programs-... > To Address Inequity, Let's Do More Than Eliminate 'Gifted And Talented' Programs https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-address-inequity-lets-do-more-than-eliminate-gifted-and-talented-programs/?sh=12e2b62555ae https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliewexler/2019/08/28/to-add... Europe doesn't have to account for this kind of thing anywhere near the level that America does. Their educational systems can largely focus on what's best for education.