8 ms·

> 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go?

> 1. For as much as we spend on education, teachers seem to be grossly underpaid - to be getting robbed of their share of the budget. Where does that money go? Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. > 2. It seems that education degrees are seen as easier to achieve than others. Yeah, but cost is the same and cost is what's important. > 4. Many school problems are caused by disruptive children. Bingo. Half the success of 4-year colleges is that it's the first time the bottom 50% of the students are filtered out. Story time. I was an ESL teacher for 5 years in Asia and planned on coming home to the USA and getting my teacher's license in Math to teach at international schools. I am not currently a teacher, I'm a quant at a big bank. Why didn't I end up in teaching? The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. Counselor's straight up told me I'd have to borrow ~$50k from the UMN for a MS in Curriculum and Instruction before I could teach. The labor unions along with politicians have built a structure in which there is artificial scarcity of teachers. Not only is the profession filled with disrespect, but it's outrageously expensive and bureaucratic. Lastly, the Economics of Education field is wild. Clearly there's value to basic reading/math/science education, but it's not clear at all whether teachers are schools matter than much (wealthy communities/parents matter a lot). Edit: feel obligated to add that k12 education is financed and administrated at the local level, which means our experiences with this likely vary a lot. Mine are specific to trying to move back to the USA and become licensed in MN.

bombcar 4y ago
I suspect that almost all of the success of private schools can be ascribed to being able to kick students out and not requiring fifty billion dollars in degrees to teach.
- danaris 4y ago
  Almost all of the success of private schools is, in fact, the former. Being able to select who goes there basically lets them set their outcomes.
  - mmcdermott 4y ago
    To a degree. There's some sampling bias as well because the kind of parent that would choose a non-default education option probably cares more to begin with.
    - Cupertino95014 4y ago
      You mean, the kids won the Genetics Lottery? Yes, getting born with parents who care about you is definitely a smart life hack.
- gshubert17 4y ago
  I taught computing for 13 years at a public charter high-school. It doesn't charge tuition (it's a public school), but does have a dress code, and a commitment to a curriculum based on E. D. Hirsch's core knowledge program in grade school and on classical, liberal arts great books in high school. Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. They hire teachers with subject-matter degrees and experience: they have some PhDs and a couple ABDs (all but dissertation). Half-jokingly they said they didn't look to hire people with teaching certificates, but wouldn't hold that against them. I had a master's degree in computer science and worked summers to get another master's. The school was smaller (maybe 700 total students K-12; the class of 2022 graduated 26), which right there, I think, made for fewer behavior problems. There was a well-thought-out discipline policy which was enforced by the administration and backed up by the board and most parents. After all, parents had made a choice to not go to the regular district schools but enroll in this school instead. I agree that the odds are much better for school success with smaller sizes, a focused curriculum (whether it's International Baccalaureate, Core Knowledge, STEM, arts, or whatever), highly qualified teachers, and supportive parents.
  - treis 4y ago
    >Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. Filtering out kids who's parents aren't willing or able to complete the application process is the cherry-picking.
    - gshubert17 4y ago
      Yes, it's a big step for parents to leave the default neighborhood school, look over the various options, even staying in the same city, let alone moving to a different district. I agree with you there. The admissions people take some time to represent the whole story or big picture to prospective parents, because the school is not for everybody. I don't think it's cherry-picking to encourage parents to find the best school for their children, even if it isn't yours. The school accepted applications from parents who had had unsatisfactory experiences at former schools, who were willing to go through the extra steps to try to get better outcomes for their students. The school had its share of free-and-reduced-lunch students and students with individual education plans and such. I heard parents give heartfelt thanks to everyone at the school who had helped their child overcome what other schools termed learning disabilities. Is it the opposite of cherry-picking to accept a student other schools have, in effect, given up on? I believe the small size of the school and individualized attention helped many students in similar situations.
- greenie_beans 4y ago
  what about a child/family's socioeconomic situation? would that not be a factor? seems like a rich kid is already setup for success regardless of public school or private school. most of the rich kids from my public school are doing fine.
danaris 4y ago
> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. This is no longer true in most places, and was never a good enough reason to justify paying starting teachers poverty wages. New York State, which I think most will agree is a state with a strong teachers' union and all that goes with it, has been phasing out defined-benefit pension plans over the past few decades. My mother-in-law, who retired about 10 years ago, was among the last wave to get the "Tier I" full-salary pensions; if you become a teacher in NYS now, you get a much less generous package (I don't know offhand whether it's still defined-benefit, just less, or if they've switched to defined-contribution plans now).
throw0101a 4y ago
> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Counter-points to that: You still have to pay the bills before retirement. And this even assumes they get a good pensions, because a lot of states don't bother funding their public employee pensions properly (using current-year tax income for splashy announcements instead, kicking the liability down the road for the next politician): * https://vtdigger.org/2021/01/17/painful-cuts-proposed-in-pensions-for-teachers-state-employees/ https://vtdigger.org/2021/01/17/painful-cuts-proposed-in-pen... In various Canadian provinces teachers get decent salaries and good pensions: why can't US states do the same?
- andrewprock 4y ago
  Teachers in the US get decent salaries and good pensions. It may be different from from state to state, but in California you can work for 25 years and retire without ever having to work again by the age of 50. You'll have to learn to live on a low salary for the first 5-10 years of your career. But pensions are paid based on your terminal salary, not your average salary. For elementary school teachers in my district the terminal salary was in excess of $100k as of 2017.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    > without ever having to work again by the age of 50. While that may be true, it's important to note that the pension is only salary (and usually only 80% of your terminal salary) and not benefits. So you'd spend a significant part of that money on getting health insurance. Most teachers who have earned full pensions wait to retire until 67 anyway so they can get Medicare (and not Social Security, because they don't qualify for it since they have their pension unless they worked another job as well).
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Unless you're married and your partner continues to work and covers benefits for you. My aunt did exactly above, and felt it was a moral duty to let new younger teachers have the spot (nevermind it meant that she was going to draw a pension from the system for more years than she'd actually worked). Plenty of other teachers feel the same way, though obviously not all.
riley_dog 4y ago
> The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. No they're not. We just want qualified people teaching our children. There's a reason why Minnesota has some great schools.
germinalphrase 4y ago
“Why didn't I end up in teaching? The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. Counselor's straight up told me I'd have to borrow ~$50k from the UMN for a MS in Curriculum and Instruction before I could teach.” I received my teaching license in Wisconsin and transferred to Minnesota by doing little more than passing the licensure exam. I did not have an MS at that time or when I started teaching in the Minneapolis suburbs. I believe you were somewhat misled.
- diognesofsinope 4y ago
  I don't have a BS in Education (BA in Philosophy), which means you have to go through their M. Ed. program with licensure. You must take Educational Theory/Pedagogy core courses along with required courses in your field -- I had saved money and already taken the calc sequence, linear algebra and differential equations. Grad school at the UMN is ~$10k a semester (https://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs/tuition https://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs/tuition). Would have been ~30 years old, $40k in debt as a beginning teacher in MN. Amazingly, none of that includes actual experience teaching lol. The teachers union has been waging a war against future teachers to benefit current teachers for 30 years and this is what that looks like after 30 years. Similar to housing and zoning, education is a government racket.
  - greenie_beans 4y ago
    > The teachers union has been waging a war against future teachers to benefit current teachers for 30 years this statement is presented as The Truth, do you have some information that backs this up?
    - diognesofsinope 4y ago
      The field of study of occupation licensing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing It's absurd to think someone needs to take a $1k 'Philosophy of Mathematics' class to teach 10th grade geometry.
lostcolony 4y ago
> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Yet another counter counterpoint - there are still companies and government jobs with defined pension plans that pay far more than teachers. Even without those, there are still many, many jobs requiring a comparative amount of education, far fewer hours worked, and pay more even once you subtract maximizing 401k contributions yearly (let alone considering the added costs of buying school supplies).
- diognesofsinope 4y ago
  Half the reason to be a teacher is because half the job is having fun. Most curricula is set in stone and requirements are nationally standardized (US and Asia). You more or less get summers off (there are conferences and summer school) and there are almost no jobs where you can take ~1.5 months off every year. Teaching is also one of the few steady jobs in rural America. I feel like most people haven't been in an actual ~5th grade classroom in a long time -- literally half of it is playing games/trying to have fun. And Youtube, good god has the educational content on Youtube evolved in the last decade.
  - fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
    5th grade education for my children has one 45-minute “play” recess (which doesn’t involve direct teacher instruction) and one 1-hour Physical Education class lead by a gym teacher. The rest of their day 8:30 AM - 3:30 PM is composed of maths, language, science, history, and technology education all done on paper or at purpose-designated computers. Next year they will receive their own devices. The playing with blocks and Lincoln logs ended in kindergarten, with the introduction of spelling test and arithmetic quizzes in first grade, so I’m not sure if I’d characterize the work my childrens’ teachers do as “literally half of it is playing games/trying to have fun” or that “[h]alf the reason to be a teacher is because half the job is having fun.” Seems like it is hard work, with both practical instruction directed toward 20-30 children with varying levels of discipline, interest, and abilities, and management of just as many if not more parents with similarly varying levels of discipline, interest, and abilities. This is a public school in one of the largest state systems in the country (United States) so perhaps your experience is informed by something more niche.
jackcosgrove 4y ago
> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. 25% of teachers in Minnesota leave the profession within three years [1] so they see no pension. This sort of weed out is common in a lot of professions and it's probably for the best, but weed out careers often combine high starting pay to attract a large pool of candidates. Public sector jobs exchange low pay for a pension and stability. Teaching doesn't offer the latter. 1. https://www.educationworld.com/a_news/state-report-reveals-over-25-percent-teachers-leave-profession-after-three-years-748599770 https://www.educationworld.com/a_news/state-report-reveals-o...
- jwie 4y ago
  I expect attrition is priced into the pension at some level, or worse, it needs these contributions to function at all. This is perhaps best for the profession, but it is systematic theft from another point of view. Even if you don’t contribute to the pension with cash, capital is still allocated on your behalf into the fund that could have been paid to you directly.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    >capital is still allocated on your behalf into the fund that could have been paid to you directly. For taxpayer funded pensions, it is more like future taxpayers’ capital is allocated on your behalf. Meaning, the actuary will calculate the government needs to set aside $2 today, the government leaders will say change that to $1 so the taxes are low today, and will end up actually contributing $0.50 because some of the funds were needed to make up for yesterday’s shortfall.
light_hue_1 4y ago
> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Nonsense. Even the most basic look at the numbers shows you this is absolutely false. Let's take a rich liberal state first. MA. Average teacher salary: $60k. Average pension $43k. Teachers contribute 9.78% of their salary in order to get this pension! The state contributes 18.17% This is not all that different from a 401k. You're confusing teachers with police officers, where the average pension is twice as high. > Why didn't I end up in teaching? The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. Counselor's straight up told me I'd have to borrow ~$50k from the UMN for a MS in Curriculum and Instruction before I could teach. Then you got terrible advice. Because the licensing requirements in Minnesota are very lax: https://mn.gov/pelsb/aspiring-educators/portfolio/ https://mn.gov/pelsb/aspiring-educators/portfolio/ You take two tests and fill out some forms. You don't even need a Master's in education. They should really tighten that up. btw, you can definitely do that MS for <$20k online.
- andrewprock 4y ago
  Pensions are typically not paid based on average teacher salary, but paid based on terminal teacher salary. Defined benefit pensions are quite different from a 401k. In our district, once you qualify for a pension you get 2% of your terminal salary per year you work. If you work for 40 years, you will be paid 80% of your last year's salary.
  - light_hue_1 4y ago
    I don't understand this reply. I quoted you the actual statistics for MA. https://www.teacherpensions.org/state/massachusetts https://www.teacherpensions.org/state/massachusetts Teachers pay into the system, quite substantially, at rates that are similar to what you would pay for a 401k. And their average pensions are quite low.
    - andrewprock 4y ago
      The formula on that page is a fixed benefit based, not on average salary, but the average salary at the end of the teacher's career - last five years. This is nothing like a 401k.
onetokeoverthe 4y ago
jandrewrogers 4y ago
The average teacher's pay in the US is essentially the median pay for all college graduates. Many engineering disciplines pay only $10k/year more, without the benefits.
cool_dude85 4y ago
>Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Pensions are cheap. I have a much better pension plan than the teachers in my state and the long term cost is about 16% of payroll - 8% from my employer and 8% from me. Hardly unreasonable cost, and yet I'll be able to comfortably retire around 55 and never worry about money again. That's not insignificant but it's not what is causing public schools to be underfunded.

bombcar 4y ago

I suspect that almost all of the success of private schools can be ascribed to being able to kick students out and not requiring fifty billion dollars in degrees to teach.

danaris 4y ago
Almost all of the success of private schools is, in fact, the former. Being able to select who goes there basically lets them set their outcomes.
- mmcdermott 4y ago
  To a degree. There's some sampling bias as well because the kind of parent that would choose a non-default education option probably cares more to begin with.
  - Cupertino95014 4y ago
    You mean, the kids won the Genetics Lottery? Yes, getting born with parents who care about you is definitely a smart life hack.
gshubert17 4y ago
I taught computing for 13 years at a public charter high-school. It doesn't charge tuition (it's a public school), but does have a dress code, and a commitment to a curriculum based on E. D. Hirsch's core knowledge program in grade school and on classical, liberal arts great books in high school. Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. They hire teachers with subject-matter degrees and experience: they have some PhDs and a couple ABDs (all but dissertation). Half-jokingly they said they didn't look to hire people with teaching certificates, but wouldn't hold that against them. I had a master's degree in computer science and worked summers to get another master's. The school was smaller (maybe 700 total students K-12; the class of 2022 graduated 26), which right there, I think, made for fewer behavior problems. There was a well-thought-out discipline policy which was enforced by the administration and backed up by the board and most parents. After all, parents had made a choice to not go to the regular district schools but enroll in this school instead. I agree that the odds are much better for school success with smaller sizes, a focused curriculum (whether it's International Baccalaureate, Core Knowledge, STEM, arts, or whatever), highly qualified teachers, and supportive parents.
- treis 4y ago
  >Admission is by lottery if there are more applicants than places, not by cherry-picking applicants. Filtering out kids who's parents aren't willing or able to complete the application process is the cherry-picking.
  - gshubert17 4y ago
    Yes, it's a big step for parents to leave the default neighborhood school, look over the various options, even staying in the same city, let alone moving to a different district. I agree with you there. The admissions people take some time to represent the whole story or big picture to prospective parents, because the school is not for everybody. I don't think it's cherry-picking to encourage parents to find the best school for their children, even if it isn't yours. The school accepted applications from parents who had had unsatisfactory experiences at former schools, who were willing to go through the extra steps to try to get better outcomes for their students. The school had its share of free-and-reduced-lunch students and students with individual education plans and such. I heard parents give heartfelt thanks to everyone at the school who had helped their child overcome what other schools termed learning disabilities. Is it the opposite of cherry-picking to accept a student other schools have, in effect, given up on? I believe the small size of the school and individualized attention helped many students in similar situations.
greenie_beans 4y ago
what about a child/family's socioeconomic situation? would that not be a factor? seems like a rich kid is already setup for success regardless of public school or private school. most of the rich kids from my public school are doing fine.

danaris 4y ago

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. This is no longer true in most places, and was never a good enough reason to justify paying starting teachers poverty wages. New York State, which I think most will agree is a state with a strong teachers' union and all that goes with it, has been phasing out defined-benefit pension plans over the past few decades. My mother-in-law, who retired about 10 years ago, was among the last wave to get the "Tier I" full-salary pensions; if you become a teacher in NYS now, you get a much less generous package (I don't know offhand whether it's still defined-benefit, just less, or if they've switched to defined-contribution plans now).

throw0101a 4y ago

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Counter-points to that: You still have to pay the bills before retirement. And this even assumes they get a good pensions, because a lot of states don't bother funding their public employee pensions properly (using current-year tax income for splashy announcements instead, kicking the liability down the road for the next politician): * https://vtdigger.org/2021/01/17/painful-cuts-proposed-in-pensions-for-teachers-state-employees/ https://vtdigger.org/2021/01/17/painful-cuts-proposed-in-pen... In various Canadian provinces teachers get decent salaries and good pensions: why can't US states do the same?

andrewprock 4y ago
Teachers in the US get decent salaries and good pensions. It may be different from from state to state, but in California you can work for 25 years and retire without ever having to work again by the age of 50. You'll have to learn to live on a low salary for the first 5-10 years of your career. But pensions are paid based on your terminal salary, not your average salary. For elementary school teachers in my district the terminal salary was in excess of $100k as of 2017.
- jedberg 4y ago
  > without ever having to work again by the age of 50. While that may be true, it's important to note that the pension is only salary (and usually only 80% of your terminal salary) and not benefits. So you'd spend a significant part of that money on getting health insurance. Most teachers who have earned full pensions wait to retire until 67 anyway so they can get Medicare (and not Social Security, because they don't qualify for it since they have their pension unless they worked another job as well).
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Unless you're married and your partner continues to work and covers benefits for you. My aunt did exactly above, and felt it was a moral duty to let new younger teachers have the spot (nevermind it meant that she was going to draw a pension from the system for more years than she'd actually worked). Plenty of other teachers feel the same way, though obviously not all.

riley_dog 4y ago

> The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. No they're not. We just want qualified people teaching our children. There's a reason why Minnesota has some great schools.

germinalphrase 4y ago

“Why didn't I end up in teaching? The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. Counselor's straight up told me I'd have to borrow ~$50k from the UMN for a MS in Curriculum and Instruction before I could teach.” I received my teaching license in Wisconsin and transferred to Minnesota by doing little more than passing the licensure exam. I did not have an MS at that time or when I started teaching in the Minneapolis suburbs. I believe you were somewhat misled.

diognesofsinope 4y ago
I don't have a BS in Education (BA in Philosophy), which means you have to go through their M. Ed. program with licensure. You must take Educational Theory/Pedagogy core courses along with required courses in your field -- I had saved money and already taken the calc sequence, linear algebra and differential equations. Grad school at the UMN is ~$10k a semester (https://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs/tuition https://onestop.umn.edu/finances/costs/tuition). Would have been ~30 years old, $40k in debt as a beginning teacher in MN. Amazingly, none of that includes actual experience teaching lol. The teachers union has been waging a war against future teachers to benefit current teachers for 30 years and this is what that looks like after 30 years. Similar to housing and zoning, education is a government racket.
- greenie_beans 4y ago
  > The teachers union has been waging a war against future teachers to benefit current teachers for 30 years this statement is presented as The Truth, do you have some information that backs this up?
  - diognesofsinope 4y ago
    The field of study of occupation licensing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_licensing It's absurd to think someone needs to take a $1k 'Philosophy of Mathematics' class to teach 10th grade geometry.

lostcolony 4y ago

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Yet another counter counterpoint - there are still companies and government jobs with defined pension plans that pay far more than teachers. Even without those, there are still many, many jobs requiring a comparative amount of education, far fewer hours worked, and pay more even once you subtract maximizing 401k contributions yearly (let alone considering the added costs of buying school supplies).

diognesofsinope 4y ago
Half the reason to be a teacher is because half the job is having fun. Most curricula is set in stone and requirements are nationally standardized (US and Asia). You more or less get summers off (there are conferences and summer school) and there are almost no jobs where you can take ~1.5 months off every year. Teaching is also one of the few steady jobs in rural America. I feel like most people haven't been in an actual ~5th grade classroom in a long time -- literally half of it is playing games/trying to have fun. And Youtube, good god has the educational content on Youtube evolved in the last decade.
- fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
  5th grade education for my children has one 45-minute “play” recess (which doesn’t involve direct teacher instruction) and one 1-hour Physical Education class lead by a gym teacher. The rest of their day 8:30 AM - 3:30 PM is composed of maths, language, science, history, and technology education all done on paper or at purpose-designated computers. Next year they will receive their own devices. The playing with blocks and Lincoln logs ended in kindergarten, with the introduction of spelling test and arithmetic quizzes in first grade, so I’m not sure if I’d characterize the work my childrens’ teachers do as “literally half of it is playing games/trying to have fun” or that “[h]alf the reason to be a teacher is because half the job is having fun.” Seems like it is hard work, with both practical instruction directed toward 20-30 children with varying levels of discipline, interest, and abilities, and management of just as many if not more parents with similarly varying levels of discipline, interest, and abilities. This is a public school in one of the largest state systems in the country (United States) so perhaps your experience is informed by something more niche.

jackcosgrove 4y ago

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. 25% of teachers in Minnesota leave the profession within three years [1] so they see no pension. This sort of weed out is common in a lot of professions and it's probably for the best, but weed out careers often combine high starting pay to attract a large pool of candidates. Public sector jobs exchange low pay for a pension and stability. Teaching doesn't offer the latter. 1. https://www.educationworld.com/a_news/state-report-reveals-over-25-percent-teachers-leave-profession-after-three-years-748599770 https://www.educationworld.com/a_news/state-report-reveals-o...

jwie 4y ago
I expect attrition is priced into the pension at some level, or worse, it needs these contributions to function at all. This is perhaps best for the profession, but it is systematic theft from another point of view. Even if you don’t contribute to the pension with cash, capital is still allocated on your behalf into the fund that could have been paid to you directly.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  >capital is still allocated on your behalf into the fund that could have been paid to you directly. For taxpayer funded pensions, it is more like future taxpayers’ capital is allocated on your behalf. Meaning, the actuary will calculate the government needs to set aside $2 today, the government leaders will say change that to $1 so the taxes are low today, and will end up actually contributing $0.50 because some of the funds were needed to make up for yesterday’s shortfall.

light_hue_1 4y ago

> Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Nonsense. Even the most basic look at the numbers shows you this is absolutely false. Let's take a rich liberal state first. MA. Average teacher salary: $60k. Average pension $43k. Teachers contribute 9.78% of their salary in order to get this pension! The state contributes 18.17% This is not all that different from a 401k. You're confusing teachers with police officers, where the average pension is twice as high. > Why didn't I end up in teaching? The licensing requirements in Minnesota are insane. Counselor's straight up told me I'd have to borrow ~$50k from the UMN for a MS in Curriculum and Instruction before I could teach. Then you got terrible advice. Because the licensing requirements in Minnesota are very lax: https://mn.gov/pelsb/aspiring-educators/portfolio/ https://mn.gov/pelsb/aspiring-educators/portfolio/ You take two tests and fill out some forms. You don't even need a Master's in education. They should really tighten that up. btw, you can definitely do that MS for <$20k online.

andrewprock 4y ago
Pensions are typically not paid based on average teacher salary, but paid based on terminal teacher salary. Defined benefit pensions are quite different from a 401k. In our district, once you qualify for a pension you get 2% of your terminal salary per year you work. If you work for 40 years, you will be paid 80% of your last year's salary.
- light_hue_1 4y ago
  I don't understand this reply. I quoted you the actual statistics for MA. https://www.teacherpensions.org/state/massachusetts https://www.teacherpensions.org/state/massachusetts Teachers pay into the system, quite substantially, at rates that are similar to what you would pay for a 401k. And their average pensions are quite low.
  - andrewprock 4y ago
    The formula on that page is a fixed benefit based, not on average salary, but the average salary at the end of the teacher's career - last five years. This is nothing like a 401k.

onetokeoverthe 4y ago

jandrewrogers 4y ago

The average teacher's pay in the US is essentially the median pay for all college graduates. Many engineering disciplines pay only $10k/year more, without the benefits.

cool_dude85 4y ago

>Counterpoint: teachers' pay is great, it's just backloaded in pension plans. Pensions are cheap. I have a much better pension plan than the teachers in my state and the long term cost is about 16% of payroll - 8% from my employer and 8% from me. Hardly unreasonable cost, and yet I'll be able to comfortably retire around 55 and never worry about money again. That's not insignificant but it's not what is causing public schools to be underfunded.