3 ms·

You still have the choice to not use any of their services. You can get pretty far in life despite not using the internet at all.

hosteur 4y ago
Well not in all countries. In my country you are required to receive electronic messages from the government as well as to have a government issued ID and authentication system that forces you to have a fairly recent smartphone. For now, it is theoretically possible to use the authentication system without a smartphone but you will have to jump through an awful amount of (artificially imposed) hoops. Not having an internet connection is NOT an option. There is a legal process to get a special permit to avoid having to use these state mandated electronic systems but it is almost only theoretically in that you will need to have a doctor's note saying that you are unable to use such systems. E.g., by suffering by severe dementia or similar.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Which country are you speaking of?
  - bbarn 4y ago
    I'm not sure about OP, but here in Iceland having a smartphone with electronic ID built into it is not TECHNICALLY a requirement but life can be very difficult without it. It is the de-facto identification system used by every government service and banking institution.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    Afaik mandatory government-provided mailbox is in Czech republic ("datovka") and Slovakia, at least for some parts of population (like enterpreneurs, lawyers, other professions that communicate with state institutions), with general mandatory use coming soon. They serve the fiction of confirmed mail delivery. If you don't pick it up from this mailbox, it is considered delivered anyway and your problem, if you miss something here.
- threeseed 4y ago
  I find this incredibly hard to believe. Governments have accessibility obligations and so their key services should absolutely be usable with something like Chromium/Linux. And it definitely shouldn't be more onerous than using a smartphone.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    For example, see https://www.slovensko.sk/sk/na-stiahnutie https://www.slovensko.sk/sk/na-stiahnutie It is the portal for Slovak republic. You are supposed to have your national ID card, which is a smart card. To use it, you need a smartcard reader and an application, which basically listens on localhost and is kind of a intermediate between your browser, the pages than need authentication and the department of state, which handles IAM. That application runs on Windows, Mac and Debian (9,10)/Ubuntu (18.04,20.04)/Mint (19.20) (it is not open source). Other distributions are not supported, forget ChromeOS. It is quite onerous. You have to enter your PIN for smartcard about four times, before you see the content of the inbox.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  But there's nothing that says you have to use that smartphone and services for anything other than government communications.
leereeves 4y ago
How would you (for example) apply for a job without the Internet?
- blueflow 4y ago
  Postal? Or deliver the envelope in-person to their box when they are nearby. I learned it like this, its since recently that applying by email more commonly an option.
  - wormer 4y ago
    As someone who's in college and looking/lookedfor internships to do over the summer, postal is literally not an option anymore. Companies will not offer a mailing address to their hiring team at all, and if you send something via mail they will simply not look at it. Also, post-pandemic, most interviews are done via Zoom, so how are you going to do that then? Even if you're in the same area as the company you're applying in, they just will not let you into the building.
    - blueflow 4y ago
      This sounds really bad! Where are you from?
      - wormer 4y ago
        New York City, and I don't think it's bad. The effort it takes for me to apply to jobs, and conversely, to approve/reject applicants (according to other people that I've talked to) is easier than having to sort through a ton of junk mail. People on Hacker News like to propose "just use low-tech!" or "just self host!" often and I don't get how that's a solution. I _could_ spend hours of my day printing out and mailing my resume to companies (if they allowed me to) and waiting days-weeks for my response _after_ they made their decision (during which time I still have to pay bills and have no job) or I could apply with one button on Linkedin and get my response back instantly. It just saves so much time. Others will say that that's a small price to pay to retain my freedom, which might be true. But what's not true is the other qualities of life that internet and big data affords me. If I don't have instagram or snapchat I literally lose all spontaneous contact with my friends and family. Sure, I _could_ mail them a letter, but with the delay in communication a lot of the intimacy is lost, and we would truthfully just talk a lot less. This, along with a lot of other problems (how do I contact my professor for help after class? go to their house?). Combined with the fact that I would have to be _extremely_ thorough and make sure that my data is scrubbed from all of Facebook/Google/Twitter/Whatever and it's subcompanies, it's just not a real solution. It's actually really annoying that so many are content with infeasible individual solutions instead of advocating for things like pushing against the EARN IT act or the like. I shouldn't have to have a computer science or cyber security degree to be private online - it should be done for me by the government. I don't know what the fuck is in that vaccine (or any medicine I take for that matter) but I can trust that it does me good because of regulations.
dessant 4y ago
In some cases Google can only be avoided at a potentially life altering personal cost. Consider how many government services use reCAPTCHA, and what it means to have no access or delayed access to these services.
- blueflow 4y ago
  I don't buy this. This would mean that elderly people are also excluded from these services.
  - dessant 4y ago
    Elderly and marginalized people do suffer because of restricted access to online services. People who cannot access the web and its services are at an obvious disadvantage in life, and that sometimes can have severe consequences. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320
    - blueflow 4y ago
      And this is legal in your place?
  - kergonath 4y ago
    > This would mean that elderly people are also excluded from these services. Having helped my 92 years old grandmother sorting out her tax returns on the government’s website, I can confirm that this is exactly what it means. And it’s the only practical way of communicating with the administration. Most local branches have been closed to the public, and the phone lines are congested all day (and cut you off after one hour waiting, which is always fun).
bambax 4y ago
The sentiment is noble, but that's not really true.
kornhole 4y ago
It is funny how some consider the internet synonymous with Google and the other big players. You don't need to use Google and the others at all these days. So many alternatives abound. The problem seems to be awareness of them. Ask me anything.

hosteur 4y ago

Well not in all countries. In my country you are required to receive electronic messages from the government as well as to have a government issued ID and authentication system that forces you to have a fairly recent smartphone. For now, it is theoretically possible to use the authentication system without a smartphone but you will have to jump through an awful amount of (artificially imposed) hoops. Not having an internet connection is NOT an option. There is a legal process to get a special permit to avoid having to use these state mandated electronic systems but it is almost only theoretically in that you will need to have a doctor's note saying that you are unable to use such systems. E.g., by suffering by severe dementia or similar.

blueflow 4y ago
Which country are you speaking of?
- bbarn 4y ago
  I'm not sure about OP, but here in Iceland having a smartphone with electronic ID built into it is not TECHNICALLY a requirement but life can be very difficult without it. It is the de-facto identification system used by every government service and banking institution.
- vetinari 4y ago
  Afaik mandatory government-provided mailbox is in Czech republic ("datovka") and Slovakia, at least for some parts of population (like enterpreneurs, lawyers, other professions that communicate with state institutions), with general mandatory use coming soon. They serve the fiction of confirmed mail delivery. If you don't pick it up from this mailbox, it is considered delivered anyway and your problem, if you miss something here.
threeseed 4y ago
I find this incredibly hard to believe. Governments have accessibility obligations and so their key services should absolutely be usable with something like Chromium/Linux. And it definitely shouldn't be more onerous than using a smartphone.
- vetinari 4y ago
  For example, see https://www.slovensko.sk/sk/na-stiahnutie https://www.slovensko.sk/sk/na-stiahnutie It is the portal for Slovak republic. You are supposed to have your national ID card, which is a smart card. To use it, you need a smartcard reader and an application, which basically listens on localhost and is kind of a intermediate between your browser, the pages than need authentication and the department of state, which handles IAM. That application runs on Windows, Mac and Debian (9,10)/Ubuntu (18.04,20.04)/Mint (19.20) (it is not open source). Other distributions are not supported, forget ChromeOS. It is quite onerous. You have to enter your PIN for smartcard about four times, before you see the content of the inbox.
JohnFen 4y ago
But there's nothing that says you have to use that smartphone and services for anything other than government communications.

leereeves 4y ago

How would you (for example) apply for a job without the Internet?

blueflow 4y ago
Postal? Or deliver the envelope in-person to their box when they are nearby. I learned it like this, its since recently that applying by email more commonly an option.
- wormer 4y ago
  As someone who's in college and looking/lookedfor internships to do over the summer, postal is literally not an option anymore. Companies will not offer a mailing address to their hiring team at all, and if you send something via mail they will simply not look at it. Also, post-pandemic, most interviews are done via Zoom, so how are you going to do that then? Even if you're in the same area as the company you're applying in, they just will not let you into the building.
  - blueflow 4y ago
    This sounds really bad! Where are you from?
    - wormer 4y ago
      New York City, and I don't think it's bad. The effort it takes for me to apply to jobs, and conversely, to approve/reject applicants (according to other people that I've talked to) is easier than having to sort through a ton of junk mail. People on Hacker News like to propose "just use low-tech!" or "just self host!" often and I don't get how that's a solution. I _could_ spend hours of my day printing out and mailing my resume to companies (if they allowed me to) and waiting days-weeks for my response _after_ they made their decision (during which time I still have to pay bills and have no job) or I could apply with one button on Linkedin and get my response back instantly. It just saves so much time. Others will say that that's a small price to pay to retain my freedom, which might be true. But what's not true is the other qualities of life that internet and big data affords me. If I don't have instagram or snapchat I literally lose all spontaneous contact with my friends and family. Sure, I _could_ mail them a letter, but with the delay in communication a lot of the intimacy is lost, and we would truthfully just talk a lot less. This, along with a lot of other problems (how do I contact my professor for help after class? go to their house?). Combined with the fact that I would have to be _extremely_ thorough and make sure that my data is scrubbed from all of Facebook/Google/Twitter/Whatever and it's subcompanies, it's just not a real solution. It's actually really annoying that so many are content with infeasible individual solutions instead of advocating for things like pushing against the EARN IT act or the like. I shouldn't have to have a computer science or cyber security degree to be private online - it should be done for me by the government. I don't know what the fuck is in that vaccine (or any medicine I take for that matter) but I can trust that it does me good because of regulations.

dessant 4y ago

In some cases Google can only be avoided at a potentially life altering personal cost. Consider how many government services use reCAPTCHA, and what it means to have no access or delayed access to these services.

blueflow 4y ago
I don't buy this. This would mean that elderly people are also excluded from these services.
- dessant 4y ago
  Elderly and marginalized people do suffer because of restricted access to online services. People who cannot access the web and its services are at an obvious disadvantage in life, and that sometimes can have severe consequences. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32304320
  - blueflow 4y ago
    And this is legal in your place?
- kergonath 4y ago
  > This would mean that elderly people are also excluded from these services. Having helped my 92 years old grandmother sorting out her tax returns on the government’s website, I can confirm that this is exactly what it means. And it’s the only practical way of communicating with the administration. Most local branches have been closed to the public, and the phone lines are congested all day (and cut you off after one hour waiting, which is always fun).

bambax 4y ago

The sentiment is noble, but that's not really true.

kornhole 4y ago

It is funny how some consider the internet synonymous with Google and the other big players. You don't need to use Google and the others at all these days. So many alternatives abound. The problem seems to be awareness of them. Ask me anything.