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I don't get why those new lines could not be driverless, I don't see much technical difficulties. They don't have to be unattended, you could place a security-g

I don't get why those new lines could not be driverless, I don't see much technical difficulties. They don't have to be unattended, you could place a security-guy in every train at night. But I don't see how the drivers perform tasks that couldn't be automated.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
Low benefit to cost ratio, probably.
merrvk 4y ago
It is strange, especially as it’s designed to have automated reversing at Paddington so the driver can change ends.
dpatterbee 4y ago
> I don't see much technical difficulties If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. They've been talking for years about how complex it has been to integrate the 3 signalling systems in use at various points on the line, so I'm not surprised they want a human in the loop in case one of them gets a bit wonky.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. It would be good to avoid these snippy comments. Obviously no one can pay attention to everything - we don't have much additional capacity over family and work commitments, so phrasing things as though people are to blame for not knowing enough about a London construction project is worse than unnecessary.
  - tremon 4y ago
    Obviously no one can pay attention to everything But given that premise, should we not first do away with snippy comments like "why don't they just [..], it's not that difficult"?
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      There's no need to do that first, no.
    - LeanderK 4y ago
      Well it's maybe naive on my side to assume it, but it was an honest question. We automate a lot of things that are from my point of view way more complex and driverless subways exist for quite some time. So I don't get why it's not done.
AndyMcConachie 4y ago
What do you do if something goes wrong? The main point of a train operator is to handle things that automated systems cannot. Things break. Humans need to make decisions fast and be onsite. When you entire goal is to keep things moving and resolve issues as quickly as possible it rarely makes sense to take the local human out of the loop.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  Automated lines can be controlled remotely in manual mode via CCTV etc.
cricalix 4y ago
London Reconnections has some articles on the subject, including how the term has basically become a political football. https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-...
samwillis 4y ago
I suspect there there is a lot of politics involved with the transport unions. They are very protective of the driver/security/conductor jobs. If TFL tried to remove the driver completely from a train, even on a new line, the unions will push back. From memory, one of the issues during the last few strikes was that TFL wanted to remove the conductor from some services, only having the driver who would then be responsible for safety. The unions strongly opposed it.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  The point of automation is to free TfL from drivers' unions. The cost of drivers isn't much compared to the cost of unions.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Automation can also increase safety.
matthewmacleod 4y ago
I don't see much technical difficulties They really are there though, even though they might not be immediately obvious! The thing is, this is a project which essentially ties together two existing regional railway lines through a new underground core. Those two systems have existing rail traffic on them and different signalling systems on each. It's already been a nightmare to implement three signalling systems and transitions between them – a project to provide fully automated operation on two other railways lines in addition to this would ramp up the complexity even further. Fully automated lines are totally viable – the DLR system in London works in the way you suggest and has for some time. And I'd bet that if the Crossrail project had been a new and isolated line it probably would have been using full automatic train operation throughout. But it's a hybrid between a regional railway and a metro line – ATO is way harder.
- LeanderK 4y ago
  ah ok, I thought this is a new isolated line!
- zeristor 4y ago
  A bit is driverless. At Paddington the driver gets off and the train goes into a siding, then comes back on the East bound platform. Makes sense, either you have a different driver waiting to board the back of the train, or wait for the driver to walk the 250m of train to get to the other end.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago

Low benefit to cost ratio, probably.

merrvk 4y ago

It is strange, especially as it’s designed to have automated reversing at Paddington so the driver can change ends.

dpatterbee 4y ago

> I don't see much technical difficulties If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. They've been talking for years about how complex it has been to integrate the 3 signalling systems in use at various points on the line, so I'm not surprised they want a human in the loop in case one of them gets a bit wonky.

robertlagrant 4y ago
> If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. It would be good to avoid these snippy comments. Obviously no one can pay attention to everything - we don't have much additional capacity over family and work commitments, so phrasing things as though people are to blame for not knowing enough about a London construction project is worse than unnecessary.
- tremon 4y ago
  Obviously no one can pay attention to everything But given that premise, should we not first do away with snippy comments like "why don't they just [..], it's not that difficult"?
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    There's no need to do that first, no.
  - LeanderK 4y ago
    Well it's maybe naive on my side to assume it, but it was an honest question. We automate a lot of things that are from my point of view way more complex and driverless subways exist for quite some time. So I don't get why it's not done.

AndyMcConachie 4y ago

What do you do if something goes wrong? The main point of a train operator is to handle things that automated systems cannot. Things break. Humans need to make decisions fast and be onsite. When you entire goal is to keep things moving and resolve issues as quickly as possible it rarely makes sense to take the local human out of the loop.

ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
Automated lines can be controlled remotely in manual mode via CCTV etc.

cricalix 4y ago

London Reconnections has some articles on the subject, including how the term has basically become a political football. https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-of-the-driverless-tube-train/ https://www.londonreconnections.com/2021/the-political-myth-...

samwillis 4y ago

I suspect there there is a lot of politics involved with the transport unions. They are very protective of the driver/security/conductor jobs. If TFL tried to remove the driver completely from a train, even on a new line, the unions will push back. From memory, one of the issues during the last few strikes was that TFL wanted to remove the conductor from some services, only having the driver who would then be responsible for safety. The unions strongly opposed it.

robertlagrant 4y ago
The point of automation is to free TfL from drivers' unions. The cost of drivers isn't much compared to the cost of unions.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  Automation can also increase safety.

matthewmacleod 4y ago

I don't see much technical difficulties They really are there though, even though they might not be immediately obvious! The thing is, this is a project which essentially ties together two existing regional railway lines through a new underground core. Those two systems have existing rail traffic on them and different signalling systems on each. It's already been a nightmare to implement three signalling systems and transitions between them – a project to provide fully automated operation on two other railways lines in addition to this would ramp up the complexity even further. Fully automated lines are totally viable – the DLR system in London works in the way you suggest and has for some time. And I'd bet that if the Crossrail project had been a new and isolated line it probably would have been using full automatic train operation throughout. But it's a hybrid between a regional railway and a metro line – ATO is way harder.

LeanderK 4y ago
ah ok, I thought this is a new isolated line!
zeristor 4y ago
A bit is driverless. At Paddington the driver gets off and the train goes into a siding, then comes back on the East bound platform. Makes sense, either you have a different driver waiting to board the back of the train, or wait for the driver to walk the 250m of train to get to the other end.