5 ms·

The Excellent Schemer

136 points by signa11 4y ago

smitty1e 4y ago
On another plane, John McCarthy smiles.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
belmarca 4y ago
The current standard for Scheme is referred to as R6RS R7RS small has been out since 2013. But yeah... "it's complicated". We did an experiment a few months ago with compiling Gambit to JS and then serving it as an Office extension, using our JS FFI to interface with the Office JS library. Worked out of the box, but definitely some performance cost. Curious about performance on .NET. BTW if Bob reads this, happy to hear you talk about this at the upcoming Scheme Workshop :) I guess this isn't available on Excel on the web? https://icfp22.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2022 https://icfp22.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2022 for those interested.
- bjoli 4y ago
  The scheme in question is IronScheme. Bob wrote the office integration. Leppie wrote the rest.
  - belmarca 4y ago
    Do you have any idea about performance? I'll just ask him in a few weeks but I'm really curious. I actually never used the .NET framework before.
    - bjoli 4y ago
      Not stellar compared to something like guile and straight up slow as molasses compared to chez. But I don't think that is the goal. It is probably on par with Python for many things. https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
      - belmarca 4y ago
        Thanks. I'm interested in the interface cost, marshalling of data to and from .NET, if he had any tricks to pull to get it working!
galaxyLogic 4y ago
This is awesome. I have two comments 1. Does this mean we don't need static type-checking? 2. Instead of (lambda (x y) (let ((xs (* x x)) (ys (* y y))) (sqrt (+ xs ys)))) why don't they (the article) format it like: (lambda (x y) (let ( (xs (* x x)) (ys (* y y)) ) (sqrt (+ xs ys)) ) ) The rule could be: Never have more than TWO consecutive closing ')' on the same line. If you're trying to prove the benefits of a syntax, the reader should not need to spend energy on trying to understand which closing ')' correspond to which opening '('.
- hedgehog0 4y ago
- xdavidliu 4y ago
  the overwhelming convention in Lisp (both Scheme and Common Lisp) seems to be to never have a closing paren by itself. I'm not sure why, but I also prefer it that way. Most editors like emacs and modern IDEs also highlight matching parens, so usually this is not really an issue.
- stew-j 4y ago
  1. Values (objects) in Scheme are tagged, carrying the type with them. And no, a variable, the identifier that names a location which stores a value isn't statically typed. From R6RS: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/r6rs-std/r6rs-Z-H-4.html#node_sec_1.1 https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/r6rs-std/r6rs-Z-H-4.html#n... > Scheme has latent as opposed to manifest types. Types are associated with objects (also called values) rather than with variables. (Some authors refer to languages with latent types as untyped, weakly typed or dynamically typed languages.) Other languages with latent types are Python, Ruby, Smalltalk, and other dialects of Lisp. Languages with manifest types (sometimes referred to as strongly typed or statically typed languages) include Algol 60, C, C#, Java, Haskell, and ML. The Scheme standards are very concise and readable. 2. Sometimes we Schemers will leave an orphan paren, like if we want to leave a place temporarily for new code. The primary benefit of all on the same line, IMO, is it is more compact vertically and most Lisp programmers rely on paren matching anyway. If you program in Scheme long enough, you can just "see" the level of nesting by the apparent contour of parenthesis. (If you don't understand this, that's probably a good thing.)
eggy 4y ago
How do you buy it? I just see a lot hype, but no link to purchase it. I am still playing around with Corman Lisp! I'd love to see how I can add Scheme to my Excel sheets, and a REPL to boot!
neilv 4y ago
Seems to be this non-Microsoft product: https://apexdatasolutions.com/home2/acce%CE%BBerate/ https://apexdatasolutions.com/home2/acce%CE%BBerate/
- deusum 4y ago
  Good artists copy, great ones steal... Microsoft has always been as brazen as it is effective at this sort of thing.
bjoli 4y ago
So, someone wrote an integration of the lovely IronScheme (open source) in office and wants $99/yr? Wowza. Edit: Check out iron scheme here: https://github.com/IronScheme/IronScheme https://github.com/IronScheme/IronScheme
- deleted 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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- magpi3 4y ago
  If they are willing to provide good support, then the $99 is well worth it.
  - eggy 4y ago
    Where is the $99 price? I can't find out how to buy it.
    - magpi3 4y ago
      On their website go to Customers->Marketplace and it looks like you can buy it there.
- mark_l_watson 4y ago
  Thanks that looks really good. I don't use .Net platform, so I am not a potential user, but for Lispers using the .Net platform, this would be nice. I use Common Lisp a lot in my work and my own research programming, and language interop is always a nuisance. With IronScheme, it looks like interop with all .Net languages is easy.
  - stew-j 4y ago
    It looks like this Scheme might eventually have good interop with Common Lisp: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/airship-scheme https://github.com/lisp-mirror/airship-scheme https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13868549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13868549 As for using it: > This section is currently incomplete because the programming language is not functional at the moment.

136 points by signa11 4y ago

smitty1e 4y ago

On another plane, John McCarthy smiles.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

belmarca 4y ago

The current standard for Scheme is referred to as R6RS R7RS small has been out since 2013. But yeah... "it's complicated". We did an experiment a few months ago with compiling Gambit to JS and then serving it as an Office extension, using our JS FFI to interface with the Office JS library. Worked out of the box, but definitely some performance cost. Curious about performance on .NET. BTW if Bob reads this, happy to hear you talk about this at the upcoming Scheme Workshop :) I guess this isn't available on Excel on the web? https://icfp22.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2022 https://icfp22.sigplan.org/home/scheme-2022 for those interested.

bjoli 4y ago
The scheme in question is IronScheme. Bob wrote the office integration. Leppie wrote the rest.
- belmarca 4y ago
  Do you have any idea about performance? I'll just ask him in a few weeks but I'm really curious. I actually never used the .NET framework before.
  - bjoli 4y ago
    Not stellar compared to something like guile and straight up slow as molasses compared to chez. But I don't think that is the goal. It is probably on par with Python for many things. https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/ https://ecraven.github.io/r7rs-benchmarks/
    - belmarca 4y ago
      Thanks. I'm interested in the interface cost, marshalling of data to and from .NET, if he had any tricks to pull to get it working!

galaxyLogic 4y ago

This is awesome. I have two comments 1. Does this mean we don't need static type-checking? 2. Instead of (lambda (x y) (let ((xs (* x x)) (ys (* y y))) (sqrt (+ xs ys)))) why don't they (the article) format it like: (lambda (x y) (let ( (xs (* x x)) (ys (* y y)) ) (sqrt (+ xs ys)) ) ) The rule could be: Never have more than TWO consecutive closing ')' on the same line. If you're trying to prove the benefits of a syntax, the reader should not need to spend energy on trying to understand which closing ')' correspond to which opening '('.

hedgehog0 4y ago
xdavidliu 4y ago
the overwhelming convention in Lisp (both Scheme and Common Lisp) seems to be to never have a closing paren by itself. I'm not sure why, but I also prefer it that way. Most editors like emacs and modern IDEs also highlight matching parens, so usually this is not really an issue.
stew-j 4y ago
1. Values (objects) in Scheme are tagged, carrying the type with them. And no, a variable, the identifier that names a location which stores a value isn't statically typed. From R6RS: https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/r6rs-std/r6rs-Z-H-4.html#node_sec_1.1 https://docs.racket-lang.org/r6rs/r6rs-std/r6rs-Z-H-4.html#n... > Scheme has latent as opposed to manifest types. Types are associated with objects (also called values) rather than with variables. (Some authors refer to languages with latent types as untyped, weakly typed or dynamically typed languages.) Other languages with latent types are Python, Ruby, Smalltalk, and other dialects of Lisp. Languages with manifest types (sometimes referred to as strongly typed or statically typed languages) include Algol 60, C, C#, Java, Haskell, and ML. The Scheme standards are very concise and readable. 2. Sometimes we Schemers will leave an orphan paren, like if we want to leave a place temporarily for new code. The primary benefit of all on the same line, IMO, is it is more compact vertically and most Lisp programmers rely on paren matching anyway. If you program in Scheme long enough, you can just "see" the level of nesting by the apparent contour of parenthesis. (If you don't understand this, that's probably a good thing.)

eggy 4y ago

How do you buy it? I just see a lot hype, but no link to purchase it. I am still playing around with Corman Lisp! I'd love to see how I can add Scheme to my Excel sheets, and a REPL to boot!

neilv 4y ago

Seems to be this non-Microsoft product: https://apexdatasolutions.com/home2/acce%CE%BBerate/ https://apexdatasolutions.com/home2/acce%CE%BBerate/

deusum 4y ago
Good artists copy, great ones steal... Microsoft has always been as brazen as it is effective at this sort of thing.

bjoli 4y ago

So, someone wrote an integration of the lovely IronScheme (open source) in office and wants $99/yr? Wowza. Edit: Check out iron scheme here: https://github.com/IronScheme/IronScheme https://github.com/IronScheme/IronScheme

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
magpi3 4y ago
If they are willing to provide good support, then the $99 is well worth it.
- eggy 4y ago
  Where is the $99 price? I can't find out how to buy it.
  - magpi3 4y ago
    On their website go to Customers->Marketplace and it looks like you can buy it there.
mark_l_watson 4y ago
Thanks that looks really good. I don't use .Net platform, so I am not a potential user, but for Lispers using the .Net platform, this would be nice. I use Common Lisp a lot in my work and my own research programming, and language interop is always a nuisance. With IronScheme, it looks like interop with all .Net languages is easy.
- stew-j 4y ago
  It looks like this Scheme might eventually have good interop with Common Lisp: https://github.com/lisp-mirror/airship-scheme https://github.com/lisp-mirror/airship-scheme https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13868549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13868549 As for using it: > This section is currently incomplete because the programming language is not functional at the moment.