8 ms·

Crossrail Project Update

29 points by zeristor 4y ago

guidedlight 4y ago
What's crazy is the Elizabeth line integrates three different signalling systems. Between Paddington and Heathrow the European Train Control System (ECTS); west of Heathrow and east of Stratford a legacy system is used; and the central section uses a modern signalling system from Siemens.
- dukoid 4y ago
  Why not ECTS for the central section, too?
  - Tsiklon 4y ago
    If I recall, more advanced signalling than ECTS is required to enable metro style operations in the core section.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - stephen_g 4y ago
    This article sums it up pretty well: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/crossrails-signalling-challenge/ https://www.railengineer.co.uk/crossrails-signalling-challen... Seems like ETCS couldn’t do automated train operation (ATO) back when the tenders were going out, so they commissioned Siemens to deliver their proven Trainguard CBTC system for the core. Since then, systems like Thameslink have used ATO on top of ETCS Level 2, but that’s still a fixed block system so probably couldn’t do enough trains per hour for Crossrail. ETCS Level 3 can do moving-block, but I don’t think there are any ETCS Level 3 implementations anywhere in the world yet. I believe the way that they operate is that the train is driven by the driver through the ETCS and older TPWS signalled areas, and then when it goes into the core the train switches over to automatic control.
    - dukoid 4y ago
      Thanks! Good to see that ETCS seems to be addressing this use case now!
OJFord 4y ago
Something that's always confused me, but I think I have it square now, is that - in its final incarnation at least - Crossrail == Elizabeth line right? The former is mostly just a legacy codename from before the Elizabeth name was announced? It's occasionally made me mix up Crossrail & HS2, because 'the London one' is 'the x line', obviously. Or perhaps it's marketed/signed as 'Crossrail' far enough outside London that there aren't any other lines, and nobody there would really consider it an un underground line for their purposes? Bond Street's odd at the moment, after months of closure to make the Northern line wheelchair accessible, there aren't any lifts that I can see. But perhaps it's just not finished - access to the Southbound platform is awkwardly via the North, and there's hoardings around (ongoing work on) the connection from there to the Central line.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  Being a bit unkind here – it was "Crossrail" for the whole lifetime of the project—and was likely intended to be the operating name—up until the last moment where it was renamed the "Elizabeth line" in a bit of sycophantic forelock-tugging to the monarch.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  Not to confuse you more, but the Elizabeth line is Crossrail 1. There is also a proposed crossrail 2 which would be another cross-London line running south-west to north-east. This hasn’t been approved yet, and given the strained finances and reduced passenger numbers post-covid, I suspect it won’t be for a while. But it may well happen at some point.
- stephen_g 4y ago
  Crossrail was the name of the project, the name of the company set up in 2001 to plan and build it (Crossrail Ltd, wholly owned by TfL), and the name of the Act (Crossrail Act) passed in 2008 giving them permission to go ahead and build it. They eventually named the line they were building the ‘Elizabeth Line’ in 2016.
- piersj225 4y ago
  I've not heard of TFL making existing underground stations wheelchair accessible, this is really good to know about
MattPalmer1086 4y ago
I was really looking forward to the Elizabeth line. My commute involved 3 separate trains and took approx 1.5 hours each way. We had noisy equipment working all night for years near our house. Now it's down to two trains (both Elizabeth line, but have to change at Paddington). By autumn it will be a single train and the commute will be down to a bit less than 40 mins each way. Of course, I mostly work at home now, so I hardly need to use it! Ah well, it is still good to have I guess.
- zeristor 4y ago
  I like to think of the Elizabeth line heralding the post Covid era. People can work from home, but if they commute is made less traumatic (more word for the collective noun for commuters is a 'plight of commuters') then there'll be less pain in going in. For myself the Central Line is loud, noisy, very hot, crowded, the tracks are bad rocking wildly. I don't think we'll get back to days of standing on the platform waiting for several trains to pass by before being able to get on to the train. Tube noise is deafening, I seem to be the only person sticking my fingers in my ears, a silent protest.
  - MattPalmer1086 4y ago
    Yes, Central Line is pretty bad. Even getting on at the first station on the line is crowded and I often have to wait for the next one. I'm still glad we have the Elizabeth line. I can get into central London much faster, even if it's not mostly for work. And the trains are nicer than the other tube lines. Because they're open inside rather than being separated by carriage you can just get on and then walk to find a seat if it's busier than normal.
    - shamiln 4y ago
      I love the Elizabeth line! Unfortunately, I live on the central line, and pre-covid, it used to take about 4-8 trains passing through the station before I would consider getting on.. to only be squeezed.
  - cassianoleal 4y ago
zeristor 4y ago
Old Oak Common station hasn't been mentioned, being a HS2 project to connect to the Elizabeth line, but a handy place to have a station.
LeanderK 4y ago
I don't get why those new lines could not be driverless, I don't see much technical difficulties. They don't have to be unattended, you could place a security-guy in every train at night. But I don't see how the drivers perform tasks that couldn't be automated.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
  Low benefit to cost ratio, probably.
- merrvk 4y ago
  It is strange, especially as it’s designed to have automated reversing at Paddington so the driver can change ends.
- dpatterbee 4y ago
  > I don't see much technical difficulties If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. They've been talking for years about how complex it has been to integrate the 3 signalling systems in use at various points on the line, so I'm not surprised they want a human in the loop in case one of them gets a bit wonky.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    > If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. It would be good to avoid these snippy comments. Obviously no one can pay attention to everything - we don't have much additional capacity over family and work commitments, so phrasing things as though people are to blame for not knowing enough about a London construction project is worse than unnecessary.
    - tremon 4y ago
      Obviously no one can pay attention to everything But given that premise, should we not first do away with snippy comments like "why don't they just [..], it's not that difficult"?
merrvk 4y ago
I use the core section 3 days a week for work. It’s brilliant, quite the feat of engineering. The scale of the stations is like nothing else on the TFL network.
- wdb 4y ago
  Yes, it’s brilliant and you can avoid Bakerloo and Central line to get to Liverpool/Bank station
- lbriner 4y ago
  This is something I think we are still getting wrong in the UK. We are building something that should be largely utilitarian with some basic flourishes, perhaps, but instead we end forking out enormous amounts for "high architecture" and the associated build costs for something that rarely pays itself back. I feel that somehow we hark back to the Victorian days where everything had to be epic but unlike the Victorian days, we are not making enormous profits by stealing resources from the empire that pay for the epic buildings. In Japan, I think they have it right, basic concrete buildings designed for efficient boarding.
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    The cost of this is fraction of a percent of the whole project.
  - fckthisguy 4y ago
    Whilst I can agree that overspending is an issue, I don't believe the cost of the "fancy" architecture is a major contributor to the costs. What's more, it's nice to have some beautiful public works. Obviously, we want punlic infrastructure that works well, but beyond that, it should be a joy to use.
nailer 4y ago
Unofficial timeline from 20 mins ago (from a construction worker outside Bond St) is that Bond st will be open in 3 months.
zeristor 4y ago
Good though it is, and it is amazing to not to have to depend on the Central Line; it’ll be quite a change when the line can run in from the East and West sides.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  The more outside of central London ot gets the least benefits it has. For instance, for people starting at the extreme West of the line, Reading, it does not make sense to take it to go to London. People still take the fast trains to Paddington and hop onto the Elisabeth Line there as needed. The line provides extra capacity but not much else in those areas. In addition, the trains are designed to be used as tubes and so are not comfortable for long journeys compared to the previous trains they replace.
  - ageitgey 4y ago
    > For instance, for people starting at the extreme West of the line, Reading, it does not make sense to take it to go to London. People still take the fast trains to Paddington and hop onto the Elisabeth Line there as needed. I don't think that's a bad thing. Where I live, I often take the Richmond to Waterloo rail instead of the District Line if I'm going to central London because it takes half the time. But it's amazing to have a multitude of options for long and short trips. Now people as far out as Reading have multiple options as well. > In addition, the trains are designed to be used as tubes and so are not comfortable for long journeys compared to the previous trains they replace The new trains are kind of a hyrbid with a mix of tube-style seating and train-style seating. They are very large and spacious and very long, but definitely more tube oriented than the typical commuter train. I think they are pretty nice, but I guess it depends on how busy it is and if you are lucky enough to get a nice seat. The Elizabeth Line is an interesting hyrbid Tube-Rail that covers a medium-length area. I think all your points are true, but I also think it's cool that they connected the whole line and didnt just build the new central section as a new stand-alone tube line. People across the line will benefit even if they don't ride the whole length of the line very often.
    - 4y ago
origin_path 4y ago
They're putting a brave face on it but pre-lockdowns it was anticipated to ramp up fairly quickly to 16-17 million passengers per month, so only managing 10 is indicative of how much mandatory work from home and the culture change that followed has crushed transport demand in London.
- edent 4y ago
  While the plural of anecdote is not data, I've been pleasantly surprised at how busy the service is. Coming home at rush-hour I've had to stand for several stops. I expect that hybrid working will continue indefinitely. But that's likely to mean more people wanting to travel on it for leisure. It's already become annoying that it isn't open on a Sunday yet.
  - zeristor 4y ago
    That's probably the most positive way to regard not being able to get a seat I've heard of. But when the line goes through at Paddington and Stratford that is when it should be regarded as working fully. Once people can stay on the train, or just jaunt over a platform to switch to the Elizabeth line it should start to show its mettle. Also I believe they plan to double the through train capacity. Also are there plans to add more carriages to the nine the trains already have?
    - Tsiklon 4y ago
      The central core stations are capable of handling longer trains, I believe an additional two carriages. But the above ground stations may not be capable of receiving those carriages, leading to a few where the carriage doors will not open.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    If you're enjoying waiting for a train now, you should've started waiting in 2017 when it was due to open :-)
- dpatterbee 4y ago

29 points by zeristor 4y ago

What's crazy is the Elizabeth line integrates three different signalling systems. Between Paddington and Heathrow the European Train Control System (ECTS); west of Heathrow and east of Stratford a legacy system is used; and the central section uses a modern signalling system from Siemens.

dukoid 4y ago
Why not ECTS for the central section, too?
- Tsiklon 4y ago
  If I recall, more advanced signalling than ECTS is required to enable metro style operations in the core section.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- stephen_g 4y ago
  This article sums it up pretty well: https://www.railengineer.co.uk/crossrails-signalling-challenge/ https://www.railengineer.co.uk/crossrails-signalling-challen... Seems like ETCS couldn’t do automated train operation (ATO) back when the tenders were going out, so they commissioned Siemens to deliver their proven Trainguard CBTC system for the core. Since then, systems like Thameslink have used ATO on top of ETCS Level 2, but that’s still a fixed block system so probably couldn’t do enough trains per hour for Crossrail. ETCS Level 3 can do moving-block, but I don’t think there are any ETCS Level 3 implementations anywhere in the world yet. I believe the way that they operate is that the train is driven by the driver through the ETCS and older TPWS signalled areas, and then when it goes into the core the train switches over to automatic control.
  - dukoid 4y ago
    Thanks! Good to see that ETCS seems to be addressing this use case now!

OJFord 4y ago

Something that's always confused me, but I think I have it square now, is that - in its final incarnation at least - Crossrail == Elizabeth line right? The former is mostly just a legacy codename from before the Elizabeth name was announced? It's occasionally made me mix up Crossrail & HS2, because 'the London one' is 'the x line', obviously. Or perhaps it's marketed/signed as 'Crossrail' far enough outside London that there aren't any other lines, and nobody there would really consider it an un underground line for their purposes? Bond Street's odd at the moment, after months of closure to make the Northern line wheelchair accessible, there aren't any lifts that I can see. But perhaps it's just not finished - access to the Southbound platform is awkwardly via the North, and there's hoardings around (ongoing work on) the connection from there to the Central line.

matthewmacleod 4y ago
Being a bit unkind here – it was "Crossrail" for the whole lifetime of the project—and was likely intended to be the operating name—up until the last moment where it was renamed the "Elizabeth line" in a bit of sycophantic forelock-tugging to the monarch.
nicoburns 4y ago
Not to confuse you more, but the Elizabeth line is Crossrail 1. There is also a proposed crossrail 2 which would be another cross-London line running south-west to north-east. This hasn’t been approved yet, and given the strained finances and reduced passenger numbers post-covid, I suspect it won’t be for a while. But it may well happen at some point.
stephen_g 4y ago
Crossrail was the name of the project, the name of the company set up in 2001 to plan and build it (Crossrail Ltd, wholly owned by TfL), and the name of the Act (Crossrail Act) passed in 2008 giving them permission to go ahead and build it. They eventually named the line they were building the ‘Elizabeth Line’ in 2016.
piersj225 4y ago
I've not heard of TFL making existing underground stations wheelchair accessible, this is really good to know about

MattPalmer1086 4y ago

I was really looking forward to the Elizabeth line. My commute involved 3 separate trains and took approx 1.5 hours each way. We had noisy equipment working all night for years near our house. Now it's down to two trains (both Elizabeth line, but have to change at Paddington). By autumn it will be a single train and the commute will be down to a bit less than 40 mins each way. Of course, I mostly work at home now, so I hardly need to use it! Ah well, it is still good to have I guess.

zeristor 4y ago
I like to think of the Elizabeth line heralding the post Covid era. People can work from home, but if they commute is made less traumatic (more word for the collective noun for commuters is a 'plight of commuters') then there'll be less pain in going in. For myself the Central Line is loud, noisy, very hot, crowded, the tracks are bad rocking wildly. I don't think we'll get back to days of standing on the platform waiting for several trains to pass by before being able to get on to the train. Tube noise is deafening, I seem to be the only person sticking my fingers in my ears, a silent protest.
- MattPalmer1086 4y ago
  Yes, Central Line is pretty bad. Even getting on at the first station on the line is crowded and I often have to wait for the next one. I'm still glad we have the Elizabeth line. I can get into central London much faster, even if it's not mostly for work. And the trains are nicer than the other tube lines. Because they're open inside rather than being separated by carriage you can just get on and then walk to find a seat if it's busier than normal.
  - shamiln 4y ago
    I love the Elizabeth line! Unfortunately, I live on the central line, and pre-covid, it used to take about 4-8 trains passing through the station before I would consider getting on.. to only be squeezed.
- cassianoleal 4y ago

zeristor 4y ago

Old Oak Common station hasn't been mentioned, being a HS2 project to connect to the Elizabeth line, but a handy place to have a station.

LeanderK 4y ago

I don't get why those new lines could not be driverless, I don't see much technical difficulties. They don't have to be unattended, you could place a security-guy in every train at night. But I don't see how the drivers perform tasks that couldn't be automated.

isbvhodnvemrwvn 4y ago
Low benefit to cost ratio, probably.
merrvk 4y ago
It is strange, especially as it’s designed to have automated reversing at Paddington so the driver can change ends.
dpatterbee 4y ago
> I don't see much technical difficulties If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. They've been talking for years about how complex it has been to integrate the 3 signalling systems in use at various points on the line, so I'm not surprised they want a human in the loop in case one of them gets a bit wonky.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  > If you haven't seen the technical difficulties that crossrail has run in to then you haven't been paying attention. It would be good to avoid these snippy comments. Obviously no one can pay attention to everything - we don't have much additional capacity over family and work commitments, so phrasing things as though people are to blame for not knowing enough about a London construction project is worse than unnecessary.
  - tremon 4y ago
    Obviously no one can pay attention to everything But given that premise, should we not first do away with snippy comments like "why don't they just [..], it's not that difficult"?

merrvk 4y ago

I use the core section 3 days a week for work. It’s brilliant, quite the feat of engineering. The scale of the stations is like nothing else on the TFL network.

wdb 4y ago
Yes, it’s brilliant and you can avoid Bakerloo and Central line to get to Liverpool/Bank station
lbriner 4y ago
This is something I think we are still getting wrong in the UK. We are building something that should be largely utilitarian with some basic flourishes, perhaps, but instead we end forking out enormous amounts for "high architecture" and the associated build costs for something that rarely pays itself back. I feel that somehow we hark back to the Victorian days where everything had to be epic but unlike the Victorian days, we are not making enormous profits by stealing resources from the empire that pay for the epic buildings. In Japan, I think they have it right, basic concrete buildings designed for efficient boarding.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  The cost of this is fraction of a percent of the whole project.
- fckthisguy 4y ago
  Whilst I can agree that overspending is an issue, I don't believe the cost of the "fancy" architecture is a major contributor to the costs. What's more, it's nice to have some beautiful public works. Obviously, we want punlic infrastructure that works well, but beyond that, it should be a joy to use.

nailer 4y ago

Unofficial timeline from 20 mins ago (from a construction worker outside Bond St) is that Bond st will be open in 3 months.

zeristor 4y ago

Good though it is, and it is amazing to not to have to depend on the Central Line; it’ll be quite a change when the line can run in from the East and West sides.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
The more outside of central London ot gets the least benefits it has. For instance, for people starting at the extreme West of the line, Reading, it does not make sense to take it to go to London. People still take the fast trains to Paddington and hop onto the Elisabeth Line there as needed. The line provides extra capacity but not much else in those areas. In addition, the trains are designed to be used as tubes and so are not comfortable for long journeys compared to the previous trains they replace.
- ageitgey 4y ago
  > For instance, for people starting at the extreme West of the line, Reading, it does not make sense to take it to go to London. People still take the fast trains to Paddington and hop onto the Elisabeth Line there as needed. I don't think that's a bad thing. Where I live, I often take the Richmond to Waterloo rail instead of the District Line if I'm going to central London because it takes half the time. But it's amazing to have a multitude of options for long and short trips. Now people as far out as Reading have multiple options as well. > In addition, the trains are designed to be used as tubes and so are not comfortable for long journeys compared to the previous trains they replace The new trains are kind of a hyrbid with a mix of tube-style seating and train-style seating. They are very large and spacious and very long, but definitely more tube oriented than the typical commuter train. I think they are pretty nice, but I guess it depends on how busy it is and if you are lucky enough to get a nice seat. The Elizabeth Line is an interesting hyrbid Tube-Rail that covers a medium-length area. I think all your points are true, but I also think it's cool that they connected the whole line and didnt just build the new central section as a new stand-alone tube line. People across the line will benefit even if they don't ride the whole length of the line very often.
  - 4y ago

origin_path 4y ago

They're putting a brave face on it but pre-lockdowns it was anticipated to ramp up fairly quickly to 16-17 million passengers per month, so only managing 10 is indicative of how much mandatory work from home and the culture change that followed has crushed transport demand in London.

edent 4y ago
While the plural of anecdote is not data, I've been pleasantly surprised at how busy the service is. Coming home at rush-hour I've had to stand for several stops. I expect that hybrid working will continue indefinitely. But that's likely to mean more people wanting to travel on it for leisure. It's already become annoying that it isn't open on a Sunday yet.
- zeristor 4y ago
  That's probably the most positive way to regard not being able to get a seat I've heard of. But when the line goes through at Paddington and Stratford that is when it should be regarded as working fully. Once people can stay on the train, or just jaunt over a platform to switch to the Elizabeth line it should start to show its mettle. Also I believe they plan to double the through train capacity. Also are there plans to add more carriages to the nine the trains already have?
  - Tsiklon 4y ago
    The central core stations are capable of handling longer trains, I believe an additional two carriages. But the above ground stations may not be capable of receiving those carriages, leading to a few where the carriage doors will not open.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  If you're enjoying waiting for a train now, you should've started waiting in 2017 when it was due to open :-)
dpatterbee 4y ago