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I noticed that too. Probably that's why Americans are better at business and entrepreneurship.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Whether or not that’s accurate, you won’t find anything but very fleeting fulfillment, joy, and happiness in business and entrepreneurship.
sharadov 4y ago
And also with a claim to fame a 42% obesity rate.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nequo 4y ago
  GP is saying that busyness causes better business outcomes. Are you saying that busyness also causes obesity?
  - sharadov 4y ago
    You answered your own question.
  - bruce511 4y ago
    I'd argue - yes. Too busy to properly prepare food, leads to convenient food, which is seldom a good choice from a weight point of view. Too busy to take time to walk somewhere, drive-through everything sparing you even the smallest amount of physical effort - not ideal... Too busy to go to the gym during the normal day (hence admiration for the early riser who's at the gym at 4am,so they can do a workout before hitting the office at 6). Too busy to have mental downtime, peace, reflection, solitude. Leads to mental-health issues, which has a high correlation with inactivity and hence obesity. So yes, I'd suggest that "being busy" is a mindset that prioritises "productivity" and not things like wellness, or good eating. So tangentially, yes, I'd argue busyness leads to obesity via some indirection.
  - scajanus 4y ago
    I think the mechanisms of this are known, through the effects of stress and cortisol and poor sleep to metabolism, and people's preference to sugar when they haven't gotten enough sleep etc. Not to mention taking the time to cook & eat your own meals without doing something else at the same time, which usually results in healthier choices and more satiety (if you eat slower/less calorie-dense foods).
eyelidlessness 4y ago
I normally try to couple my downvotes, which are rare, with some kind of reflection that the other person might benefit from. I’m not sure what to offer here, but I’ll try. It’s a weird exceptionalism which celebrates excessive work and all the impact that has on people, and vicariously relate to the rare successes as if they’re your own. Most people won’t ever be a billionaire, and even those who will won’t always be happy with their life. One of the few things almost every person has, as almost equal currency, is time. Almost all of us spend most of it doing work for some external purpose and get to enjoy little of it ourselves. I’m not sure how much joy people get from being successful at business or entrepreneurship, but as a value judgment I’d say that people who live their lives satisfied and healthy without such achievements are probably treating themselves better than if they were chasing an improbable windfall. As for which culture is “better”, I don’t have to comment on which is happier and more satisfied. That much is knowable.
- blagie 4y ago
  I find I'm happiest and most satisfied when I'm incredibly busy with something truly meaningful. Capitalism does a mediocre job of allocating rewards to those who contribute, and most people I know have make-work: advertising, legal, fin-tech, and just the whole slew of stuff which reallocates wealth. The claim is that it allocates it more efficiently, which is perhaps true, but it's a second-order effect. If I am helping people -- be that for money, or for example, my family -- I get meaning and fulfilment out of it. In those sorts of jobs, I can work 60+ hour weeks and not burn out. I'm in a job I find meaningful right now. It pays half of what I'd make as a SWE optimizing ad clicks, but I'm happy. I don't work 60-hour weeks right now because of family, but I have worked insane work weeks before, and I probably will again at some point.
- junofan 4y ago
  Parent made a comparison on two specific dimensions, neither of which were happiness and satisfaction. Also building a business is pretty achievable for most people. It’s not chasing a windfall.
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
jerojero 4y ago
I wouldn't be so hasty. How the world is today doesn't mean it is the way the world will look like in 100 or 200 years. The person that got the best grades in my bachelor's, she studied so hard to achieve this, but this only lasted for 2 years she ended up burning out. Her mental health completely deteriorated and she basically gave up, it took a whole year of recovery for her to come back and finish the degree. Now, on a people scale, it might take a couple of years... on a societal level it might take decades. But personally I think a society that treats people that way might end up encountering problems in the future. And I would say, being good at business is most of the time, being able to sustain a healthy economy for a very long time. Every empire falls and it's not really a question of if, it's a question of when.
- surfpel 4y ago
  It could slide the other way as well. American working culture could get more sustainable over time as we learn to adjust and life becomes more convenient. For example, what kind of impact on productivity do conveniences like instant coffee, drive thru restaurants, and microwavable meals have? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that we will develop more of these conveniences in the future, making extremely hard work even more sustainable over time.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    That's not necessarily the case. It assumes that hard work is not "sustainable over time" because you have to attend to minutia (making an actual coffee, cooking, etc.). But as others have said, all this takes energy. I've noticed that even though doing these "mindless, useless" tasks can be annoying, and a total drag to think about, after I went and done them I tend to feel much fresher when getting back to work. Maybe the issue is that there's a limit to the length of time we can spend focusing on only one thing.
    - surfpel 4y ago
      I'm not suggesting any particular solution, but I am suggesting that it could become easier over time with different quality of life improvements. I gave examples of products, but it could easily be changes in other aspects of work. Like getting rid of open offices, measuring employees on work accomplished rather than time spent at work, having more frequent breaks during the day, having more flexible work schedules, etc... Again not saying any one of these are the ticket, but that general improvements over time could keep making us more productive without bringing on burnout, or at least squeezing more work in before that happens.
na85 4y ago
Probably. Also probably why the USA doesn't typically rank in the top 10 countries by quality of life metrics.
- hamiltonians 4y ago
  this is a very broad statement. you have to control for a lot of variables. in some ways the US is better, in other ways is is worse..
  - bruce511 4y ago
    I think we can agree that Americans have more money. Or higher paying jobs. Well, except for those who don't (but that's their own fault right?) But other than money, is the US really better at, well, anything? If you are in the US, and you don't have money - what do you have? Now sure, I'm making a broad statement, but I'd argue that outside of "we have more money" there's not a whole lot of America that's appealing. I'll shorten the obligatory "if we are so bad, why does everyone want to come here" question by pointing out; Not everyone does. But the US has some poor neighbors, so it can seem that way. And; There is always some group of people who see money as the prime motivator, and hence the US the prime destination. I say this not to pick on the US, or say its a terrible place. But to encourage some objective introspection. I suspect that the perception that "America is the best country on earth" is the primary stumbling block that prevents America from being anywhere close to the best country on earth.
bruce511 4y ago
You say that like it's a good thing :) But sure, Americans are very work-driven, and some small percentage will float to the top. But are they better at life generally? They have higher divorce rates than Europe,a higher suicide rate than (western) Europe, take fewer holidays, are less travelled, care less about the environment, and so on. Sure, I get that business and entrepreneurship are focused around the accumulation of money, but I would suggest that is only half the equation. What really matters is how you _spend_ your money (and time), not how much of it you accumulate. Put another way - do you think, speaking generally of course, covering the population as a whole, America is _happier_ for being so focused on money?
- codpiece 4y ago
  I don't think Americans are so much focused on money as they are living a twisted pursuit of self-reliance. I think money is only one facet of that.
xcambar 4y ago
I wish your comment was sarcastic.

Whether or not that’s accurate, you won’t find anything but very fleeting fulfillment, joy, and happiness in business and entrepreneurship.

sharadov 4y ago

And also with a claim to fame a 42% obesity rate.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nequo 4y ago
GP is saying that busyness causes better business outcomes. Are you saying that busyness also causes obesity?
- sharadov 4y ago
  You answered your own question.
- bruce511 4y ago
  I'd argue - yes. Too busy to properly prepare food, leads to convenient food, which is seldom a good choice from a weight point of view. Too busy to take time to walk somewhere, drive-through everything sparing you even the smallest amount of physical effort - not ideal... Too busy to go to the gym during the normal day (hence admiration for the early riser who's at the gym at 4am,so they can do a workout before hitting the office at 6). Too busy to have mental downtime, peace, reflection, solitude. Leads to mental-health issues, which has a high correlation with inactivity and hence obesity. So yes, I'd suggest that "being busy" is a mindset that prioritises "productivity" and not things like wellness, or good eating. So tangentially, yes, I'd argue busyness leads to obesity via some indirection.
- scajanus 4y ago
  I think the mechanisms of this are known, through the effects of stress and cortisol and poor sleep to metabolism, and people's preference to sugar when they haven't gotten enough sleep etc. Not to mention taking the time to cook & eat your own meals without doing something else at the same time, which usually results in healthier choices and more satiety (if you eat slower/less calorie-dense foods).

eyelidlessness 4y ago

I normally try to couple my downvotes, which are rare, with some kind of reflection that the other person might benefit from. I’m not sure what to offer here, but I’ll try. It’s a weird exceptionalism which celebrates excessive work and all the impact that has on people, and vicariously relate to the rare successes as if they’re your own. Most people won’t ever be a billionaire, and even those who will won’t always be happy with their life. One of the few things almost every person has, as almost equal currency, is time. Almost all of us spend most of it doing work for some external purpose and get to enjoy little of it ourselves. I’m not sure how much joy people get from being successful at business or entrepreneurship, but as a value judgment I’d say that people who live their lives satisfied and healthy without such achievements are probably treating themselves better than if they were chasing an improbable windfall. As for which culture is “better”, I don’t have to comment on which is happier and more satisfied. That much is knowable.

blagie 4y ago
I find I'm happiest and most satisfied when I'm incredibly busy with something truly meaningful. Capitalism does a mediocre job of allocating rewards to those who contribute, and most people I know have make-work: advertising, legal, fin-tech, and just the whole slew of stuff which reallocates wealth. The claim is that it allocates it more efficiently, which is perhaps true, but it's a second-order effect. If I am helping people -- be that for money, or for example, my family -- I get meaning and fulfilment out of it. In those sorts of jobs, I can work 60+ hour weeks and not burn out. I'm in a job I find meaningful right now. It pays half of what I'd make as a SWE optimizing ad clicks, but I'm happy. I don't work 60-hour weeks right now because of family, but I have worked insane work weeks before, and I probably will again at some point.
junofan 4y ago
Parent made a comparison on two specific dimensions, neither of which were happiness and satisfaction. Also building a business is pretty achievable for most people. It’s not chasing a windfall.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago

jerojero 4y ago

I wouldn't be so hasty. How the world is today doesn't mean it is the way the world will look like in 100 or 200 years. The person that got the best grades in my bachelor's, she studied so hard to achieve this, but this only lasted for 2 years she ended up burning out. Her mental health completely deteriorated and she basically gave up, it took a whole year of recovery for her to come back and finish the degree. Now, on a people scale, it might take a couple of years... on a societal level it might take decades. But personally I think a society that treats people that way might end up encountering problems in the future. And I would say, being good at business is most of the time, being able to sustain a healthy economy for a very long time. Every empire falls and it's not really a question of if, it's a question of when.

surfpel 4y ago
It could slide the other way as well. American working culture could get more sustainable over time as we learn to adjust and life becomes more convenient. For example, what kind of impact on productivity do conveniences like instant coffee, drive thru restaurants, and microwavable meals have? I don't think it's unreasonable to think that we will develop more of these conveniences in the future, making extremely hard work even more sustainable over time.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  That's not necessarily the case. It assumes that hard work is not "sustainable over time" because you have to attend to minutia (making an actual coffee, cooking, etc.). But as others have said, all this takes energy. I've noticed that even though doing these "mindless, useless" tasks can be annoying, and a total drag to think about, after I went and done them I tend to feel much fresher when getting back to work. Maybe the issue is that there's a limit to the length of time we can spend focusing on only one thing.
  - surfpel 4y ago
    I'm not suggesting any particular solution, but I am suggesting that it could become easier over time with different quality of life improvements. I gave examples of products, but it could easily be changes in other aspects of work. Like getting rid of open offices, measuring employees on work accomplished rather than time spent at work, having more frequent breaks during the day, having more flexible work schedules, etc... Again not saying any one of these are the ticket, but that general improvements over time could keep making us more productive without bringing on burnout, or at least squeezing more work in before that happens.

na85 4y ago

Probably. Also probably why the USA doesn't typically rank in the top 10 countries by quality of life metrics.

hamiltonians 4y ago
this is a very broad statement. you have to control for a lot of variables. in some ways the US is better, in other ways is is worse..
- bruce511 4y ago
  I think we can agree that Americans have more money. Or higher paying jobs. Well, except for those who don't (but that's their own fault right?) But other than money, is the US really better at, well, anything? If you are in the US, and you don't have money - what do you have? Now sure, I'm making a broad statement, but I'd argue that outside of "we have more money" there's not a whole lot of America that's appealing. I'll shorten the obligatory "if we are so bad, why does everyone want to come here" question by pointing out; Not everyone does. But the US has some poor neighbors, so it can seem that way. And; There is always some group of people who see money as the prime motivator, and hence the US the prime destination. I say this not to pick on the US, or say its a terrible place. But to encourage some objective introspection. I suspect that the perception that "America is the best country on earth" is the primary stumbling block that prevents America from being anywhere close to the best country on earth.

bruce511 4y ago

You say that like it's a good thing :) But sure, Americans are very work-driven, and some small percentage will float to the top. But are they better at life generally? They have higher divorce rates than Europe,a higher suicide rate than (western) Europe, take fewer holidays, are less travelled, care less about the environment, and so on. Sure, I get that business and entrepreneurship are focused around the accumulation of money, but I would suggest that is only half the equation. What really matters is how you _spend_ your money (and time), not how much of it you accumulate. Put another way - do you think, speaking generally of course, covering the population as a whole, America is _happier_ for being so focused on money?

codpiece 4y ago
I don't think Americans are so much focused on money as they are living a twisted pursuit of self-reliance. I think money is only one facet of that.

xcambar 4y ago

I wish your comment was sarcastic.