3 ms·

With loaded issues like racism, more baseless claims just make the problem worse. What we need is evidence, and unfortunately there is almost none in this HN di

With loaded issues like racism, more baseless claims just make the problem worse. What we need is evidence, and unfortunately there is almost none in this HN discussion. I've learned nothing about the issue. More broadly, systems can be discriminatory: Using the maps as an example, imagine if a projection made the US look tiny; I don't imagine it would sell well. But if one makes Africa appear tiny, the map may persist for a long time. That's how systems can be discriminatory and how we can decieve ourselves, without conscious intent. Also, there are plenty of people, especially in the past and also in the last few years, who have openly and aggressively expressed intent to discriminate based on race and similar factors, and we can add to that the more subtle expressions. We have plenty of evidence of widespread motive and we should expect many outcomes to match their stated intent. Many people in minority groups have told me, for years, that a large number of people in the US will always deny racism, in every instance. They might say something acknowledging racism generally, but in every specific instance they actively reject it has happened and oppose any action. An argument can always be found (for anything, of course). It's politicized - it's not related to the facts or reason, every claim becomes a political battle that must be won. I didn't believe it at first, but it certainly has been born out, from my perspective. It's a situation that obstructs knowledge, bringing people together, and solutions, and not entirely incidentally: Politicizing any issue is an obvious way to make it similarly intractable (e.g., climate change). EDIT: Maybe it's like any innovation, such as in tech - people react with outrage to any change, as we know well on HN. Which brings us back to facts: People can come up with a plausible argument for anything; hard facts are the scythe that cuts away the 99.9% that is nonsense; that's why science and courtrooms rely on them.

drekipus 4y ago
Have you thought that maybe the hard fact is that the map was made because it's useful and not because of racism?
- HowardStark 4y ago
  This completely misses the first point the parent comment made. Even if we agree that the map wasn’t _made_ with racist or discriminatory intent, and hand sound reasoning for existing as it did (preserving angles as another comment mentioned), it doesn’t mean that it’s continued use isn’t discriminatory. The parent comment is explaining that it perhaps became ubiquitous because white/colonial powers happened to be over-represented in scale. And once it is ubiquitous, it can be tough to walk backwards to something like the tetrahedral projection in the OP because anyone who does so in, say, America, would be diminishing America’s physical presence on projection maps.
  - drekipus 4y ago
    >that it perhaps became ubiquitous because white/colonial powers happened to be over-represented in scale. Yes. Society at large got together and said "these maps make us look good, let's spread them around, we will have until 2022 until someone will unravel our master scheme". > And once it is ubiquitous, it can be tough to walk backwards to something like the tetrahedral projection in the OP because anyone who does so in, say, America, would be diminishing America’s physical presence on projection maps. Perhaps it's tough to walk back ubiquitous things for superficial reasons. USA isn't "big" on a map and there's no one standing in the way of this great injustice unless you're thinking Canada Russia and Greenland control the world.
rayiner 4y ago
> People can come up with a plausible argument for anything And I agree—and “maps are racist” is an example of that. I should also add that it’s not cost-free to err on the side of seeing “hidden” racism. Studies show that people succeed when they have an internal locus of control. People who have an external locus of control—they believe their fate is decided by outside factors—are less likely to be successful. Revealing racism (even real racism) is thus in the immediate term bad for minorities because it reinforces beliefs that racism holds them back. It can only be good for them if it gets white people to reduce racist conduct by enough to offset that negative impact. I think in reality, telling people that “maps are racist” (even if it was true!) won’t really change the primary behavior of white people by enough to outweigh the negative psychological impact on minorities. The author is probably hurting minorities by peddling this myth.

drekipus 4y ago

Have you thought that maybe the hard fact is that the map was made because it's useful and not because of racism?

HowardStark 4y ago
This completely misses the first point the parent comment made. Even if we agree that the map wasn’t _made_ with racist or discriminatory intent, and hand sound reasoning for existing as it did (preserving angles as another comment mentioned), it doesn’t mean that it’s continued use isn’t discriminatory. The parent comment is explaining that it perhaps became ubiquitous because white/colonial powers happened to be over-represented in scale. And once it is ubiquitous, it can be tough to walk backwards to something like the tetrahedral projection in the OP because anyone who does so in, say, America, would be diminishing America’s physical presence on projection maps.
- drekipus 4y ago
  >that it perhaps became ubiquitous because white/colonial powers happened to be over-represented in scale. Yes. Society at large got together and said "these maps make us look good, let's spread them around, we will have until 2022 until someone will unravel our master scheme". > And once it is ubiquitous, it can be tough to walk backwards to something like the tetrahedral projection in the OP because anyone who does so in, say, America, would be diminishing America’s physical presence on projection maps. Perhaps it's tough to walk back ubiquitous things for superficial reasons. USA isn't "big" on a map and there's no one standing in the way of this great injustice unless you're thinking Canada Russia and Greenland control the world.

rayiner 4y ago

> People can come up with a plausible argument for anything And I agree—and “maps are racist” is an example of that. I should also add that it’s not cost-free to err on the side of seeing “hidden” racism. Studies show that people succeed when they have an internal locus of control. People who have an external locus of control—they believe their fate is decided by outside factors—are less likely to be successful. Revealing racism (even real racism) is thus in the immediate term bad for minorities because it reinforces beliefs that racism holds them back. It can only be good for them if it gets white people to reduce racist conduct by enough to offset that negative impact. I think in reality, telling people that “maps are racist” (even if it was true!) won’t really change the primary behavior of white people by enough to outweigh the negative psychological impact on minorities. The author is probably hurting minorities by peddling this myth.