5 ms·

Another "Europeana are racist ergo Mercator". The Mercator projection is popular for one very important reason: ease of navigation [1]. If you know nothing but

Another "Europeana are racist ergo Mercator". The Mercator projection is popular for one very important reason: ease of navigation [1]. If you know nothing but your location on Earth you can sail, walk, fly, paddle wherever you want with a Mercator map and a compass. Thats it. Before fancy navigation aids this was huge. Sure, trade winds and great circles were important consideration. But, at the end of the day, if poop hit the fan (think Shackleton expedition) and all you had was a row boat, a compass and a sextant with 800 mi of South Atlantic to cross, you could still make it home. But no, the purpose of a chart is not as a practical aid to getting around. The purpose of a chart is for insecure white men to feel better about themselves. Here I agree, as the author is clearly projecting his white savior complex [1] the author doesn't even get right the reason why the Mercator excels for navigation: constant rhumb lines. You set your course and you'll get to your destination without needing to correct (a great circle requires constant correction). "Small features are preserved" what croc!

andrepd 4y ago
> But no, the purpose of a chart is not as a practical aid to getting around. The purpose of a chart is for insecure white men to feel better about themselves. Obviously, what is being said is not that Gerardus Mercator designed, in the 1500s, a map with the express purpose of misrepresenting the relative size of places in order to further a 21st century geopolitical cause of eurocentrism. That would be a very stupid thing to say, and I'm sure you're not that stupid. It is perfectly possible, however, that a map projection originally conceived for navigation is (unintentionally) a misrepresentation of the world that does further such an agenda of eurocentrism and does misrepresent e.g. the size of Africa, in a way that is unsuited for educational purposes. I don't even understand the relevance of arguing "but it's so great for navigating if you're shipwrecked in the middle of the Pacific", which is obviously a vanishingly small use-case of this map.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dgfitz 4y ago
> The purpose of a chart is for insecure white men to feel better about themselves. I’d like to see the Venn diagram of insecure white men and insecure white men who feel better about themselves because of the Mercator project. What a strange flex.
rayiner 4y ago
- wolverine876 4y ago
  Isn't that a bit paranoid? Do you have evidence for it? Such attacks are a great - and common - way of changing the topic from the merits of the issue.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I mean, the white people who colonized everyone often do themselves as benefactors. I don’t think it’s paranoid to ask what contemporary benefactors are getting out of it for themselves: https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ I’m from Bangladesh and my dad has a lot of beefs with the British, but I can’t say Mercator projection has ever come up as one of them. I heard it for the first time from white people. Who came up with the idea that the Mercator projection is racist? Who popularized it? Who gains power if minority kids learn that in schools and come to believe it’s true? I think there is evidence to justify skepticism. When we came to this country, white people had nothing to say about Bangladeshi identity. That issue was owned by Bangladeshis themselves—through communities and what parents would tell their children. In the last decade or so, suddenly I’m hearing a lot about “brown” identity (we’ve been reduced to a color) from white people and white dominated institutions. And they really want me to be angry at/scared of other white people, which was never something my parents told me growing up. I don’t think I’m paranoid to ask where that’s coming from.
    - eternalban 4y ago
      There is a dominant discourse that is cultural and inevitably ethnic. How is this going to work in a plantation earth corporate future? So dismantling this appears to have been decided. Looking beyond existing cultural controls, what can replace it? If it is not strictly based on facts and reason (think along "the medium is the message") then control of medium grants societal control. At some point I think this will move on from historic grievances platform to some arbitrary 1984ish 'receive social instructions hour' sort of thing. I too, btw, am an immigrant, born in Iran. And equally baffled as to what beyond the usual trope of incompetence can explain this sort of clearly orchestrated effort at inflaming social tension along every seam, ludicrously exaggerating the crimes of the dreaded White Man. Reminds me of the Monty Python skit in Life of Brian, discussing all the evils of the Romans. The whole thing is a strawman that you just know at some point will be robustly done away it, ushering in what? Possibly fascism. Certainly someone is insistent on making sure at some point things boil over.
wolverine876 4y ago
Perhaps we could approach the issue with intellectual curiosity, as HN asks us, instead of dismissing it (complete with a psychoanalysis of the author).
- bawolff 4y ago
  Blindly accepting something is no more intellectually curious than blindly rejecting it.
tptacek 4y ago
This comment repeats a point made prominently in the article itself, and draws out one detail of the post while ignoring the bulk of it, which includes a bunch of interesting stuff, like the somewhat mind-bending sinusoid from Pakistan to Kamchatka that represents a navigable straight sailing line. It derails any interesting or curious conversation we can have about map projections in order to elevate a tendentious political argument, and dismisses anything interesting about map projections as if "Mercator is useful for navigation" was somehow dispositive. This isn't conversation so much as it is rhetorical arson. Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Eldt 4y ago
  It's quite common to comment on a subset of the article, no? And given this point was prominently made in the article, that should be more reason to receive attention in the comment section. I also see an interesting sibling thread developing, so further discussion has been instigated by this parent comment...
  - tptacek 4y ago
    The guideline speaks for itself here.
tommiegannert 4y ago
I think we should rename it to the magnetic field map. Would make it less arbitrary, no offence to Mercator.

andrepd 4y ago

> But no, the purpose of a chart is not as a practical aid to getting around. The purpose of a chart is for insecure white men to feel better about themselves. Obviously, what is being said is not that Gerardus Mercator designed, in the 1500s, a map with the express purpose of misrepresenting the relative size of places in order to further a 21st century geopolitical cause of eurocentrism. That would be a very stupid thing to say, and I'm sure you're not that stupid. It is perfectly possible, however, that a map projection originally conceived for navigation is (unintentionally) a misrepresentation of the world that does further such an agenda of eurocentrism and does misrepresent e.g. the size of Africa, in a way that is unsuited for educational purposes. I don't even understand the relevance of arguing "but it's so great for navigating if you're shipwrecked in the middle of the Pacific", which is obviously a vanishingly small use-case of this map.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

dgfitz 4y ago

> The purpose of a chart is for insecure white men to feel better about themselves. I’d like to see the Venn diagram of insecure white men and insecure white men who feel better about themselves because of the Mercator project. What a strange flex.

rayiner 4y ago

wolverine876 4y ago
Isn't that a bit paranoid? Do you have evidence for it? Such attacks are a great - and common - way of changing the topic from the merits of the issue.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I mean, the white people who colonized everyone often do themselves as benefactors. I don’t think it’s paranoid to ask what contemporary benefactors are getting out of it for themselves: https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ https://contexts.org/blog/who-gets-to-define-whats-racist/ I’m from Bangladesh and my dad has a lot of beefs with the British, but I can’t say Mercator projection has ever come up as one of them. I heard it for the first time from white people. Who came up with the idea that the Mercator projection is racist? Who popularized it? Who gains power if minority kids learn that in schools and come to believe it’s true? I think there is evidence to justify skepticism. When we came to this country, white people had nothing to say about Bangladeshi identity. That issue was owned by Bangladeshis themselves—through communities and what parents would tell their children. In the last decade or so, suddenly I’m hearing a lot about “brown” identity (we’ve been reduced to a color) from white people and white dominated institutions. And they really want me to be angry at/scared of other white people, which was never something my parents told me growing up. I don’t think I’m paranoid to ask where that’s coming from.
  - eternalban 4y ago
    There is a dominant discourse that is cultural and inevitably ethnic. How is this going to work in a plantation earth corporate future? So dismantling this appears to have been decided. Looking beyond existing cultural controls, what can replace it? If it is not strictly based on facts and reason (think along "the medium is the message") then control of medium grants societal control. At some point I think this will move on from historic grievances platform to some arbitrary 1984ish 'receive social instructions hour' sort of thing. I too, btw, am an immigrant, born in Iran. And equally baffled as to what beyond the usual trope of incompetence can explain this sort of clearly orchestrated effort at inflaming social tension along every seam, ludicrously exaggerating the crimes of the dreaded White Man. Reminds me of the Monty Python skit in Life of Brian, discussing all the evils of the Romans. The whole thing is a strawman that you just know at some point will be robustly done away it, ushering in what? Possibly fascism. Certainly someone is insistent on making sure at some point things boil over.

wolverine876 4y ago

Perhaps we could approach the issue with intellectual curiosity, as HN asks us, instead of dismissing it (complete with a psychoanalysis of the author).

bawolff 4y ago
Blindly accepting something is no more intellectually curious than blindly rejecting it.

tptacek 4y ago

This comment repeats a point made prominently in the article itself, and draws out one detail of the post while ignoring the bulk of it, which includes a bunch of interesting stuff, like the somewhat mind-bending sinusoid from Pakistan to Kamchatka that represents a navigable straight sailing line. It derails any interesting or curious conversation we can have about map projections in order to elevate a tendentious political argument, and dismisses anything interesting about map projections as if "Mercator is useful for navigation" was somehow dispositive. This isn't conversation so much as it is rhetorical arson. Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Eldt 4y ago
It's quite common to comment on a subset of the article, no? And given this point was prominently made in the article, that should be more reason to receive attention in the comment section. I also see an interesting sibling thread developing, so further discussion has been instigated by this parent comment...
- tptacek 4y ago
  The guideline speaks for itself here.

tommiegannert 4y ago

I think we should rename it to the magnetic field map. Would make it less arbitrary, no offence to Mercator.