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The US government is made up of people like you. If you really want to enact change, you can. Government officials don't just become government officials. >

The US government is made up of people like you. If you really want to enact change, you can. Government officials don't just become government officials. > I didn't create, buy, or even sanction it. But, you choose to live beneath it. If you don't like the rules, you can work to change it. This is a democracy though, so don't think that everyone will blindly agree with you. This obviously assumes you are an American. If you aren't, then I really don't see the issue.

mindslight 15y ago
> The US government is made up of people like you The whole is not merely the sum of the parts. And the people making up the government are nothing like me. For one, they believe government is a means to itself, while I do not. > If you really want to enact change, you can Citation needed. > you choose to live beneath ithh A one-possibility choice is not a choice. Your unstated assumption is that my personal life should be dependent on the government. I reject this. Also, there are not many places on Earth which aren't controlled by the US govt. > If you don't like the rules, you can work to change it And waste my life endlessly fighting others who wish to enforce their differing will on everyone, while we all perpetuate the democracy virus? That's how to become part of the problem!
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > Citation needed. You're being purposefully obtuse. I'm sorry everyone doesn't agree with you. Your opinion isn't the only one. Your teenage angst driven post is sad, if only because you really believe what you are spewing. > I reject this. Big words for someone who clearly doesn't. Really, if you're being honest here in this post, I can't help but think your a bigger fraud then the people who supposedly shun.
  - mindslight 15y ago
    Well, I can't really respond to personal attacks with anything other than 'NUH-UH!'. We're just coming from radically different assumptions. I've been there, thinking my vote mattered, thinking that conservatives just needed some enlightenment (if you prefer the converse - thinking that progressives just need some experience with the real world). Thinking that change happens eventually once enough people wake up and get the message. But then I realized that we're all just fighting ourselves over surface issues. So much passion is poured into arguing to preserve the littlest bits of freedom while the pedagogues fan the simplistic tyranny of the other "side's" masses. Meanwhile, the organizations seeking increased importance and authority keep their eyes on the prize and offer their 'solutions' to the complex fundamental meta-issues. A battle may be won from time to time, but the system's invasion of and control over your life ratchets ever forward. I certainly don't have a concrete solution to this whole mess, but the least I can do is avoid contributing to its legitimacy.
    - jasonlotito 15y ago
      > I've been there, thinking my vote mattered... I wasn't referring to merely voting. I was referring to actually getting into politics and enacting change from the inside. If you just vote, you aren't enacting any change. You're signaling your belief that others are better able to handle this then you.
      - mindslight 15y ago
        Then add 'thinking my friend getting into local politics would start changing things from the inside' to that list (yes, also factual with that time of my life). The point being, it's a state of thinking that we just need to democracy harder to fix the problems. To accurately evaluate systems, one has to step back and look at their actual (emergent) behavior, not just their purported (axiomatic) behavior.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - mindslight 15y ago
        Then add 'thinking my friend getting into local politics would start changing things from the inside' to that list (yes, also factual with that time of my life). The point being, it's a state of thinking that we just need to democracy harder to fix the problems. To accurately evaluate systems, one has to step back and look at their actual (emergent) behavior, not just their purported (axiomatic) behavior.
- fennecfoxen 15y ago
  Ah, yes, the democracy virus. Democracy sucks, honestly, but unfortunately the cure is much worse than the disease. :(
jholman 15y ago
> This obviously assumes you are an American. If you aren't, then I really don't see the issue. Let me start by supposing, as I think we all do, that this date-and-serial watermarking is indeed a form of spying on users of printers. Let me further suppose, perhaps more contentiously, that this international spying conspiracy of printer manufacturers is actually directed by some single nation-state (not an international conspiracy of nation-states), and that that state is the U.S. EDIT: Regarding the leadership of the conspiracy, on the one hand the EFF apparently has FOIA responses that confirm that the U.S. is complicit, but otoh apparently the Dutch (and other countries) are using it too, so maybe I'm wrong to suppose that there's a single state at the head of the conspiracy. It staggers me that you would not see why I would object to a foreign government (the U.S.) spying on me. Obviously it's not the _same_ issue as if my own government were spying on me.
- tedunangst 15y ago
  I'm not sure how watermarking counts as spying on you. Maybe if the printer were secretly emailing a copy of everything printed to the CIA, that'd be spying.

mindslight 15y ago

> The US government is made up of people like you The whole is not merely the sum of the parts. And the people making up the government are nothing like me. For one, they believe government is a means to itself, while I do not. > If you really want to enact change, you can Citation needed. > you choose to live beneath ithh A one-possibility choice is not a choice. Your unstated assumption is that my personal life should be dependent on the government. I reject this. Also, there are not many places on Earth which aren't controlled by the US govt. > If you don't like the rules, you can work to change it And waste my life endlessly fighting others who wish to enforce their differing will on everyone, while we all perpetuate the democracy virus? That's how to become part of the problem!

jasonlotito 15y ago
> Citation needed. You're being purposefully obtuse. I'm sorry everyone doesn't agree with you. Your opinion isn't the only one. Your teenage angst driven post is sad, if only because you really believe what you are spewing. > I reject this. Big words for someone who clearly doesn't. Really, if you're being honest here in this post, I can't help but think your a bigger fraud then the people who supposedly shun.
- mindslight 15y ago
  Well, I can't really respond to personal attacks with anything other than 'NUH-UH!'. We're just coming from radically different assumptions. I've been there, thinking my vote mattered, thinking that conservatives just needed some enlightenment (if you prefer the converse - thinking that progressives just need some experience with the real world). Thinking that change happens eventually once enough people wake up and get the message. But then I realized that we're all just fighting ourselves over surface issues. So much passion is poured into arguing to preserve the littlest bits of freedom while the pedagogues fan the simplistic tyranny of the other "side's" masses. Meanwhile, the organizations seeking increased importance and authority keep their eyes on the prize and offer their 'solutions' to the complex fundamental meta-issues. A battle may be won from time to time, but the system's invasion of and control over your life ratchets ever forward. I certainly don't have a concrete solution to this whole mess, but the least I can do is avoid contributing to its legitimacy.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    > I've been there, thinking my vote mattered... I wasn't referring to merely voting. I was referring to actually getting into politics and enacting change from the inside. If you just vote, you aren't enacting any change. You're signaling your belief that others are better able to handle this then you.
    - mindslight 15y ago
      Then add 'thinking my friend getting into local politics would start changing things from the inside' to that list (yes, also factual with that time of my life). The point being, it's a state of thinking that we just need to democracy harder to fix the problems. To accurately evaluate systems, one has to step back and look at their actual (emergent) behavior, not just their purported (axiomatic) behavior.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - mindslight 15y ago
      Then add 'thinking my friend getting into local politics would start changing things from the inside' to that list (yes, also factual with that time of my life). The point being, it's a state of thinking that we just need to democracy harder to fix the problems. To accurately evaluate systems, one has to step back and look at their actual (emergent) behavior, not just their purported (axiomatic) behavior.
fennecfoxen 15y ago
Ah, yes, the democracy virus. Democracy sucks, honestly, but unfortunately the cure is much worse than the disease. :(

jholman 15y ago

> This obviously assumes you are an American. If you aren't, then I really don't see the issue. Let me start by supposing, as I think we all do, that this date-and-serial watermarking is indeed a form of spying on users of printers. Let me further suppose, perhaps more contentiously, that this international spying conspiracy of printer manufacturers is actually directed by some single nation-state (not an international conspiracy of nation-states), and that that state is the U.S. EDIT: Regarding the leadership of the conspiracy, on the one hand the EFF apparently has FOIA responses that confirm that the U.S. is complicit, but otoh apparently the Dutch (and other countries) are using it too, so maybe I'm wrong to suppose that there's a single state at the head of the conspiracy. It staggers me that you would not see why I would object to a foreign government (the U.S.) spying on me. Obviously it's not the _same_ issue as if my own government were spying on me.

tedunangst 15y ago
I'm not sure how watermarking counts as spying on you. Maybe if the printer were secretly emailing a copy of everything printed to the CIA, that'd be spying.