4 ms·

> He says he wanted to try "XeTeX" (which supports Unicode) but "...I was going to download it as an experiment and they wanted 5 gigabytes and 5 gigabytes at t

by mlyle 4y ago

> He says he wanted to try "XeTeX" (which supports Unicode) but "...I was going to download it as an experiment and they wanted 5 gigabytes and 5 gigabytes at the particular boonies place I'm living would...mmm..not be finished yet!" Man, I think once you're Kernighan there should be like a 1gigabit/sec symmetric circuit wherever you go just in case you use it to do something else useful.

asddubs 4y ago
on the other hand, I've done lots of excellent coding in places with awful internet. fast enough to be able to look things up when you really have to, but too annoying to meaningfully distract yourself
sargstuff 4y ago
Ah, thought goto usage was considered harmful.
scoot 4y ago
THis isn't about bandwidth, it's about the size of modern binaries.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Pardon me, but why have modern binaries grown so big? When I wrote my thesis in TeX, the entire installation would fit in some 30 megabytes or so. It was actually right in the uncomfortable middle. Far too big to carry around on a set of diskettes, but a CD would be waste of space.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    You can fit a decent TeX distribution in <100MB. But if you want to have every macro package that everyone everywhere likes, you're going to use some space.
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      I've often wondered why there isn't a dependency system for TeX that lets you get only the packages you need... feed it a document and tell it to automatically download and install any missing packages. There may be some technical reason why this isn't practical. Anyone know, offhand?
      - kccqzy 4y ago
        Totally practical and supported. See MikTeX: https://miktex.org/kb/just-enough-tex https://miktex.org/kb/just-enough-tex But the reason I don't use it is because I don't always have Internet when I need to write my document. I'd rather download all the packages and their documentation beforehand.
        rdlw 4y ago
        MikTeX also supports downloading individual packages, though I wish there was an option to download, say, the most commonly used 1GB or something.
        bombcar 4y ago
        When stuck on a plane without wifi the only thing I could find on my computer to read were the Tex manuals. Good stuff.
      - mickmcq 4y ago
        There is a TeX distribution that does what you say, TinyTeX. For some reason it is obscure and only really used by R and R Studio users. That may be because it is used to render R Markdown documents to pdf.
- mananaysiempre 4y ago
  TeX distributions are enormous, but the binaries themselves are actually not big—the overhead imposed by Knuth’s obnoxious license, while nonzero (you can’t modify the original Pascal-in-WEB source, only patch it, so a manual source port to a different language is painful enough that nobody tried, we’re all using an automatic Pascal-to-C translation with lipstick on it), is not huge, and aside from a smattering of utilities that’s it for the binary part. It’s just that the distros also include oodles of (plain text!) macro packages for everything under the sun. There are some legitimately large things such as fonts, but generally speaking a full TeXLive or MiKTeX distribution is bloat by ten thousand 100-kilobyte files, like a Python distribution with the whole of PyPI included. If you know what you want, you can probably fit a comprehensive LaTeX workbench in under 50M, but it takes an inordinate amount of time.
  - svat 4y ago
    I agree with your main point about the binaries being small and a reasonable LaTeX distribution fitting in under 50 MiB (I think starting with a minimal MiKTeX and letting it install what you need a few times will leave you there as well), but regarding > a manual source port to a different language is painful enough that nobody tried there are in fact quite a few, many of which are complete: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/507846/are-there-any-non-web-re-implementation-of-tex-core-in-recent-years/507930#507930 https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/507846/are-there-any...
rustqt6 4y ago
You put it jokingly? But distinguished people should definitely get some state managed perks like politicians do.
- sargstuff 4y ago
  ? Atomatons ?
- kergonath 4y ago
  No they should not. They need to live in the same world we do, using the same tools we have. The example being politicians should make one think: do we really need more of this greasy pole and lust for power and freebies in computing? The whole elite mindset is corrosive. Besides, where would you put the bar for “distinguished”? Who would take the decision?
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > No they should not. They need to live in the same world we do, using the same tools we have. Grand prizes with honorariums and perks of various kinds are a longstanding tradition with value. I was mostly kidding, but: Kernighan totally can afford a big internet connection wherever he is. But he chooses not to buy it. The social benefit from him having one likely outweighs the personal benefit from him buying it.
    - z3t4 4y ago
      You should start a fiber/ISP company
      - mlyle 4y ago
        It would be more of a grand prize with an internet access component. :P Of course, if I still operated internet access and Kernighan was in my area, I'd definitely comp him a circuit. :P
  - Aeolos 4y ago
    Other “distinguished” people, obviously. Which should make the problems of any such system obvious: it inevitably becomes yet another “in club” for people with connections and power.
JdeBP 4y ago
... or a fast car with a load of magnetic tapes (or memory cards, per M. Munroe) in the boot fuelled up and ready to roll. (-:

by mlyle 4y ago

asddubs 4y ago

on the other hand, I've done lots of excellent coding in places with awful internet. fast enough to be able to look things up when you really have to, but too annoying to meaningfully distract yourself

sargstuff 4y ago

Ah, thought goto usage was considered harmful.

scoot 4y ago

THis isn't about bandwidth, it's about the size of modern binaries.

inglor_cz 4y ago
Pardon me, but why have modern binaries grown so big? When I wrote my thesis in TeX, the entire installation would fit in some 30 megabytes or so. It was actually right in the uncomfortable middle. Far too big to carry around on a set of diskettes, but a CD would be waste of space.
- mlyle 4y ago
  You can fit a decent TeX distribution in <100MB. But if you want to have every macro package that everyone everywhere likes, you're going to use some space.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    I've often wondered why there isn't a dependency system for TeX that lets you get only the packages you need... feed it a document and tell it to automatically download and install any missing packages. There may be some technical reason why this isn't practical. Anyone know, offhand?
    - kccqzy 4y ago
      Totally practical and supported. See MikTeX: https://miktex.org/kb/just-enough-tex https://miktex.org/kb/just-enough-tex But the reason I don't use it is because I don't always have Internet when I need to write my document. I'd rather download all the packages and their documentation beforehand.
      - rdlw 4y ago
        MikTeX also supports downloading individual packages, though I wish there was an option to download, say, the most commonly used 1GB or something.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        When stuck on a plane without wifi the only thing I could find on my computer to read were the Tex manuals. Good stuff.
    - mickmcq 4y ago
      There is a TeX distribution that does what you say, TinyTeX. For some reason it is obscure and only really used by R and R Studio users. That may be because it is used to render R Markdown documents to pdf.
mananaysiempre 4y ago
TeX distributions are enormous, but the binaries themselves are actually not big—the overhead imposed by Knuth’s obnoxious license, while nonzero (you can’t modify the original Pascal-in-WEB source, only patch it, so a manual source port to a different language is painful enough that nobody tried, we’re all using an automatic Pascal-to-C translation with lipstick on it), is not huge, and aside from a smattering of utilities that’s it for the binary part. It’s just that the distros also include oodles of (plain text!) macro packages for everything under the sun. There are some legitimately large things such as fonts, but generally speaking a full TeXLive or MiKTeX distribution is bloat by ten thousand 100-kilobyte files, like a Python distribution with the whole of PyPI included. If you know what you want, you can probably fit a comprehensive LaTeX workbench in under 50M, but it takes an inordinate amount of time.
- svat 4y ago
  I agree with your main point about the binaries being small and a reasonable LaTeX distribution fitting in under 50 MiB (I think starting with a minimal MiKTeX and letting it install what you need a few times will leave you there as well), but regarding > a manual source port to a different language is painful enough that nobody tried there are in fact quite a few, many of which are complete: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/507846/are-there-any-non-web-re-implementation-of-tex-core-in-recent-years/507930#507930 https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/507846/are-there-any...

rustqt6 4y ago

You put it jokingly? But distinguished people should definitely get some state managed perks like politicians do.

sargstuff 4y ago
? Atomatons ?
kergonath 4y ago
No they should not. They need to live in the same world we do, using the same tools we have. The example being politicians should make one think: do we really need more of this greasy pole and lust for power and freebies in computing? The whole elite mindset is corrosive. Besides, where would you put the bar for “distinguished”? Who would take the decision?
- mlyle 4y ago
  > No they should not. They need to live in the same world we do, using the same tools we have. Grand prizes with honorariums and perks of various kinds are a longstanding tradition with value. I was mostly kidding, but: Kernighan totally can afford a big internet connection wherever he is. But he chooses not to buy it. The social benefit from him having one likely outweighs the personal benefit from him buying it.
  - z3t4 4y ago
    You should start a fiber/ISP company
    - mlyle 4y ago
      It would be more of a grand prize with an internet access component. :P Of course, if I still operated internet access and Kernighan was in my area, I'd definitely comp him a circuit. :P
- Aeolos 4y ago
  Other “distinguished” people, obviously. Which should make the problems of any such system obvious: it inevitably becomes yet another “in club” for people with connections and power.

JdeBP 4y ago

... or a fast car with a load of magnetic tapes (or memory cards, per M. Munroe) in the boot fuelled up and ready to roll. (-: