5 ms·

> I mean, they're delusional, but I understand the mindset for cheating. Parental (other similar) pressure can indeed be quite strong. Absent of that pressure

> I mean, they're delusional, but I understand the mindset for cheating. Parental (other similar) pressure can indeed be quite strong. Absent of that pressure they wouldn't be there in the first place, so perhaps it is not so much being delusional as a rational response to their environment? If they cheat their way through the parents are happy and then they can return to the life they otherwise would have lived. The time lost is unfortunate in some respects, but at the same time if you're cheating, the time investment likely isn't that great and an acceptable cost given the circumstances. > the kind of shit that makes every faculty member angry I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy.

busyant 4y ago
> I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy. There's a lot more going on here than maybe you realize. First, the students are not your only customers. The administration is also one of your customers. If you make the course TOO difficult and fail everyone, your "administration customer" will find a way to get rid of you. Conversely, if you make the course too easy and everyone gets to cheat and everyone gets an "A", then many students who pass your class may not pass various professional certification exams that are more rigorously controlled (i.e., no cheating). If that happens, then the school may lose accreditation for programs that you are associated with (i.e., if all the nursing majors fail their certification exam, your nursing program may get nuked). Then you get nuked. Third, whether you like it or not, your relationships with your students is something you have to deal with. Students who don't cheat have a tendency to get really upset if they find out you turn a blind eye to cheating. Happy cheating customers leads to unhappy honest customers. Fourth, if your fellow faculty members feel like you're going easy on the students to get favorable reviews (or because you're lazy or because you hate confrontation), they can make life unpleasant for you, too. They also aren't too happy if they teach upper level courses and you send a bunch of garbage students their way.
- randomdata 4y ago
  It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount. You don't need to fail the cheaters, you just need to make it more appealing to not cheat to keep the non-cheaters happy. How are you doing that? Is there a financial discount to those who have shown to not cheat (or conversely a higher rate for those who wish to cheat)? If not, you might want to try a new business. You may not be cut out for the one you're in. The business world is not very forgiving, nor should it be. Those who can't adapt need to perish.
  - busyant 4y ago
    > It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount Spoken like someone who hasn't done the job and is confident in his ignorance.
    - randomdata 4y ago
      Yes, that is what "seems" implies. It suggests that there is gaps in the information and that one should come back with more details. There were also directed questions included to help guide one to where information was lacking. Curious that a primitive emotional response has transpired instead. Given the greater context of discussion also about emotions, is there something about the job that attracts this type of behaviour?
bo1024 4y ago
Famous professor quote/reply about this: "in teaching, students are not the customer. They are the product."
- randomdata 4y ago
  That certainly would be true within the public education (primary, secondary) system, where the government is the customer. Hence why attendance is mandated. However, typically college level students are initiating and fulfilling the transaction, thus they are the customer. They offer up money in exchange for keeping arbitrary social pressures at bay. In rare cases they offer money in exchange for learning things. It is possible for the customer to also be the product. Especially in the age of salable data, that is becoming more and more common. However, when that is the case there is incentives given to the customers to shape them into what selling them as a product requires. In context here, that would mean something like giving discounts to those who don't cheat, which I am not familiar with any college doing, so... That brings us back to why would a vendor get emotional about the customer not using the product as intended?
sideshowb 4y ago
> I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor Because your customer, in so doing, is stealing from your other customers and undermining your reputation as a vendor. Plus, you're disheartened because this interaction is a waste of time, regardless of the fact you get paid: if money was all you cared about, you wouldn't be in education.
- randomdata 4y ago
  > Because your customer, in so doing, is stealing from your other customers That's always going to be the case, though. Imagine you built software that helped businesses find customers. Using it the intended way they can realize a small number of new customer each day distributed across your customer base. Now, someone finds a new way to use your software in a manner that you never envisioned and they're attracting all the customers, taking from those who used the software as expected. But, really, who cares? You just pivot to the embrace the new way and carry on with life. That's your market now. It's fun and all to want to be the elevator operator of old, but at some point you have to realize that nobody cares about your nostalgia. Markets change. > Plus, you're disheartened because this interaction is a waste of time But it is not. The students are only there to abade social pressures and cheating their way through gives them what they want out of the deal. Very few students care about the academics. > if money was all you cared about, you wouldn't be in education. If you don't care about money, why are you marketing the social need so hard? This is like a car manufacturer marketing that their cars are great gateway vehicles when committing crimes and then lamenting that criminals are using their vehicles to get away... Before the ridiculous, albeit successful, "If you don't go to college you will end up flipping burgers" marketing campaign, college only attracted a small number of students who were serious about learning and all was well with the world. Colleges still spend an inordinate amount of time justifying why the cost is worthwhile to keep up the social need illusion. It's not hard to revert to the natural state. Fact of the matter is that you (not you personally, perhaps, but the group) don't want to.
  - sideshowb 4y ago
    You picked a very specific example of customer behaviour, with aspects of a zero sum game, that is by no means "always going to be the case". And yes it's a waste of time! If you want a fake credential then it's much cheaper and easier to just lie on your CV. It's not like many employers will check your certificates, at least not in software. I'd really rather people did that than waste my time first trying to teach them and later handling their academic misconduct cases. If I'm marketing social need, this is the first time I've heard of it ;-)

busyant 4y ago

> I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy. There's a lot more going on here than maybe you realize. First, the students are not your only customers. The administration is also one of your customers. If you make the course TOO difficult and fail everyone, your "administration customer" will find a way to get rid of you. Conversely, if you make the course too easy and everyone gets to cheat and everyone gets an "A", then many students who pass your class may not pass various professional certification exams that are more rigorously controlled (i.e., no cheating). If that happens, then the school may lose accreditation for programs that you are associated with (i.e., if all the nursing majors fail their certification exam, your nursing program may get nuked). Then you get nuked. Third, whether you like it or not, your relationships with your students is something you have to deal with. Students who don't cheat have a tendency to get really upset if they find out you turn a blind eye to cheating. Happy cheating customers leads to unhappy honest customers. Fourth, if your fellow faculty members feel like you're going easy on the students to get favorable reviews (or because you're lazy or because you hate confrontation), they can make life unpleasant for you, too. They also aren't too happy if they teach upper level courses and you send a bunch of garbage students their way.

randomdata 4y ago
It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount. You don't need to fail the cheaters, you just need to make it more appealing to not cheat to keep the non-cheaters happy. How are you doing that? Is there a financial discount to those who have shown to not cheat (or conversely a higher rate for those who wish to cheat)? If not, you might want to try a new business. You may not be cut out for the one you're in. The business world is not very forgiving, nor should it be. Those who can't adapt need to perish.
- busyant 4y ago
  > It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount Spoken like someone who hasn't done the job and is confident in his ignorance.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    Yes, that is what "seems" implies. It suggests that there is gaps in the information and that one should come back with more details. There were also directed questions included to help guide one to where information was lacking. Curious that a primitive emotional response has transpired instead. Given the greater context of discussion also about emotions, is there something about the job that attracts this type of behaviour?

bo1024 4y ago

Famous professor quote/reply about this: "in teaching, students are not the customer. They are the product."

randomdata 4y ago
That certainly would be true within the public education (primary, secondary) system, where the government is the customer. Hence why attendance is mandated. However, typically college level students are initiating and fulfilling the transaction, thus they are the customer. They offer up money in exchange for keeping arbitrary social pressures at bay. In rare cases they offer money in exchange for learning things. It is possible for the customer to also be the product. Especially in the age of salable data, that is becoming more and more common. However, when that is the case there is incentives given to the customers to shape them into what selling them as a product requires. In context here, that would mean something like giving discounts to those who don't cheat, which I am not familiar with any college doing, so... That brings us back to why would a vendor get emotional about the customer not using the product as intended?

sideshowb 4y ago

> I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor Because your customer, in so doing, is stealing from your other customers and undermining your reputation as a vendor. Plus, you're disheartened because this interaction is a waste of time, regardless of the fact you get paid: if money was all you cared about, you wouldn't be in education.

randomdata 4y ago
> Because your customer, in so doing, is stealing from your other customers That's always going to be the case, though. Imagine you built software that helped businesses find customers. Using it the intended way they can realize a small number of new customer each day distributed across your customer base. Now, someone finds a new way to use your software in a manner that you never envisioned and they're attracting all the customers, taking from those who used the software as expected. But, really, who cares? You just pivot to the embrace the new way and carry on with life. That's your market now. It's fun and all to want to be the elevator operator of old, but at some point you have to realize that nobody cares about your nostalgia. Markets change. > Plus, you're disheartened because this interaction is a waste of time But it is not. The students are only there to abade social pressures and cheating their way through gives them what they want out of the deal. Very few students care about the academics. > if money was all you cared about, you wouldn't be in education. If you don't care about money, why are you marketing the social need so hard? This is like a car manufacturer marketing that their cars are great gateway vehicles when committing crimes and then lamenting that criminals are using their vehicles to get away... Before the ridiculous, albeit successful, "If you don't go to college you will end up flipping burgers" marketing campaign, college only attracted a small number of students who were serious about learning and all was well with the world. Colleges still spend an inordinate amount of time justifying why the cost is worthwhile to keep up the social need illusion. It's not hard to revert to the natural state. Fact of the matter is that you (not you personally, perhaps, but the group) don't want to.
- sideshowb 4y ago
  You picked a very specific example of customer behaviour, with aspects of a zero sum game, that is by no means "always going to be the case". And yes it's a waste of time! If you want a fake credential then it's much cheaper and easier to just lie on your CV. It's not like many employers will check your certificates, at least not in software. I'd really rather people did that than waste my time first trying to teach them and later handling their academic misconduct cases. If I'm marketing social need, this is the first time I've heard of it ;-)