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I do want to say that, those criteria exclude neurodivergent folk (who for many reasons may have never even been diagnosed). Honestly I think moving away from

I do want to say that, those criteria exclude neurodivergent folk (who for many reasons may have never even been diagnosed). Honestly I think moving away from grades is going to be the way forward. Part of this is also making university, etc cheaper so you’re not financially incentivized to not take a class one, or multiple more times.

nyanpasu64 4y ago
Mass-produced education is like a train, once you fall off you'll get hurt trying to get back on. I've come to the realization that given the inhumane pace, difficult and poorly-taught curriculum, and ambiguous/out-of-scope homework assignments in a top-tier university's CS program, the majority of my university classes were either not worth taking, or I'd be better off self-studying if I found an intrinsically rewarding project (definitely less panic attacks and psychological trauma, sometimes even similar or deeper learning). Perhaps I'd have a better time in a less prestigious university that doesn't see its purpose as weeding out and breaking lesser students.
DiggyJohnson 4y ago
Do you also believe that we should move away from evaluation entirely? Genuinely asking.
- aaomidi 4y ago
  I think during education yes, during execution of the skills learned in education - not really but also depends. A lot of people hate how tech interviews are done, right? Cause they have nothing to do with the job the majority of the time. Those are places where I can see improvements. However, some jobs do genuinely need you to interact with a diverse set of people all the time, for those you need to make sure for the sake of your company & the candidate that they match the criteria. Other jobs, you need only maintain strong relations with small groups, and the requirements for those are a lot easier to hit - even the most introverted people can do well in smaller groups that don't change a lot. I do really think a lot of evaluations that happen during education though makes a confrontational relationship with learning. You're constantly judged about your _ability to learn_and that has far reaching impacts beyond your first twoish decades of your life. You get scared of making mistakes, you get scared of taking risks, etc. So, evaluate when it's important for the function & safety of the job, and the candidate. Skip evaluation when its evaluation for the sake of evaluation.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Evaluation is vital but the current model used in education today is not evaluation, it is punishment. Failed to get the answers right? You are punished. You lose points. Your GPA plummets. You could even fail the class and have to take it again which means the punishment is not only social but economical. There's real life consequences to this kind of evaluation. Huge consequences. Students cannot afford to make mistakes. There's huge pressure and anxiety before and during a test because the stakes are so high. Failing at this stuff can cost someone their future: future jobs, future career, even the student loans that enable them to study in the first place may only be afforded to students who get good grades. Is it any wonder people cheat?
  - lakomen 4y ago
    Well if you have to meet certain criteria to get a title then "punishment" is exactly what I'd expect to see. Isn't that the whole point of all this? You can't call yourself a med doctor if you have no idea about being one, if you don't know about the key knowledge areas. Therefore you're not a doctor and don't get to have that title. It's about filtering out those who can't
  - johndough 4y ago
    If you define negative evaluations as "punishment", then evaluation without punishment is useless.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> Part of this is also making university, etc cheaper so you’re not financially incentivized to not take a class one, or multiple more times. I'd rather people had better opportunities in life that didn't depend on education. There's a lot of people who hate school and are just going through the motions because they believe it's the only path to success in life.

nyanpasu64 4y ago

Mass-produced education is like a train, once you fall off you'll get hurt trying to get back on. I've come to the realization that given the inhumane pace, difficult and poorly-taught curriculum, and ambiguous/out-of-scope homework assignments in a top-tier university's CS program, the majority of my university classes were either not worth taking, or I'd be better off self-studying if I found an intrinsically rewarding project (definitely less panic attacks and psychological trauma, sometimes even similar or deeper learning). Perhaps I'd have a better time in a less prestigious university that doesn't see its purpose as weeding out and breaking lesser students.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago

Do you also believe that we should move away from evaluation entirely? Genuinely asking.

aaomidi 4y ago
I think during education yes, during execution of the skills learned in education - not really but also depends. A lot of people hate how tech interviews are done, right? Cause they have nothing to do with the job the majority of the time. Those are places where I can see improvements. However, some jobs do genuinely need you to interact with a diverse set of people all the time, for those you need to make sure for the sake of your company & the candidate that they match the criteria. Other jobs, you need only maintain strong relations with small groups, and the requirements for those are a lot easier to hit - even the most introverted people can do well in smaller groups that don't change a lot. I do really think a lot of evaluations that happen during education though makes a confrontational relationship with learning. You're constantly judged about your _ability to learn_and that has far reaching impacts beyond your first twoish decades of your life. You get scared of making mistakes, you get scared of taking risks, etc. So, evaluate when it's important for the function & safety of the job, and the candidate. Skip evaluation when its evaluation for the sake of evaluation.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
Evaluation is vital but the current model used in education today is not evaluation, it is punishment. Failed to get the answers right? You are punished. You lose points. Your GPA plummets. You could even fail the class and have to take it again which means the punishment is not only social but economical. There's real life consequences to this kind of evaluation. Huge consequences. Students cannot afford to make mistakes. There's huge pressure and anxiety before and during a test because the stakes are so high. Failing at this stuff can cost someone their future: future jobs, future career, even the student loans that enable them to study in the first place may only be afforded to students who get good grades. Is it any wonder people cheat?
- lakomen 4y ago
  Well if you have to meet certain criteria to get a title then "punishment" is exactly what I'd expect to see. Isn't that the whole point of all this? You can't call yourself a med doctor if you have no idea about being one, if you don't know about the key knowledge areas. Therefore you're not a doctor and don't get to have that title. It's about filtering out those who can't
- johndough 4y ago
  If you define negative evaluations as "punishment", then evaluation without punishment is useless.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> Part of this is also making university, etc cheaper so you’re not financially incentivized to not take a class one, or multiple more times. I'd rather people had better opportunities in life that didn't depend on education. There's a lot of people who hate school and are just going through the motions because they believe it's the only path to success in life.