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> The most effective policy might not be to try and mechanically prevent cheating, but to explain that, this is information that you're going to need if you act

> The most effective policy might not be to try and mechanically prevent cheating, but to explain that, this is information that you're going to need if you actually want to go into the field and if you're using copilot here you are damaging yourself in the long run. I don't teach CS, but I teach an online course in a STEM field. I give out a similar message ("you're only hurting yourself in the long run"). My anecdotal evidence is that my warning does nothing--I have trap questions on various quizzes/exams and the frequency of cheating hasn't changed with or without the warning. My suspicion is that the students who cheat feel this way: "This is just some bullshit hoop that I have to jump through, so it's okay if I cheat. I'll figure out the important stuff when the time comes." I mean, they're delusional, but I understand the mindset for cheating. edit: amusing story. Faculty members in my department are required to take an on-line course on how to handle hazardous waste. There are a few hours worth of videos to watch and a test that you need to pass at the end. Last year, one of the faculty members took the test, compiled the answers and emailed them around to everyone else (to save them the time for this "bullshit task."). I said to him, "Isn't this precisely the kind of shit that makes every faculty member angry when the students do it?" That being said, it was a bullshit test.

randomdata 4y ago
> I mean, they're delusional, but I understand the mindset for cheating. Parental (other similar) pressure can indeed be quite strong. Absent of that pressure they wouldn't be there in the first place, so perhaps it is not so much being delusional as a rational response to their environment? If they cheat their way through the parents are happy and then they can return to the life they otherwise would have lived. The time lost is unfortunate in some respects, but at the same time if you're cheating, the time investment likely isn't that great and an acceptable cost given the circumstances. > the kind of shit that makes every faculty member angry I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy.
- busyant 4y ago
  > I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy. There's a lot more going on here than maybe you realize. First, the students are not your only customers. The administration is also one of your customers. If you make the course TOO difficult and fail everyone, your "administration customer" will find a way to get rid of you. Conversely, if you make the course too easy and everyone gets to cheat and everyone gets an "A", then many students who pass your class may not pass various professional certification exams that are more rigorously controlled (i.e., no cheating). If that happens, then the school may lose accreditation for programs that you are associated with (i.e., if all the nursing majors fail their certification exam, your nursing program may get nuked). Then you get nuked. Third, whether you like it or not, your relationships with your students is something you have to deal with. Students who don't cheat have a tendency to get really upset if they find out you turn a blind eye to cheating. Happy cheating customers leads to unhappy honest customers. Fourth, if your fellow faculty members feel like you're going easy on the students to get favorable reviews (or because you're lazy or because you hate confrontation), they can make life unpleasant for you, too. They also aren't too happy if they teach upper level courses and you send a bunch of garbage students their way.
  - randomdata 4y ago
    It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount. You don't need to fail the cheaters, you just need to make it more appealing to not cheat to keep the non-cheaters happy. How are you doing that? Is there a financial discount to those who have shown to not cheat (or conversely a higher rate for those who wish to cheat)? If not, you might want to try a new business. You may not be cut out for the one you're in. The business world is not very forgiving, nor should it be. Those who can't adapt need to perish.
    - busyant 4y ago
pclmulqdq 4y ago
Some courses really are required bullshit to some students. A lot of professors don't realize this, but if you teach a required course, it is simple math to say that some of your students just don't need to learn what you are teaching. Sure, a lot of students do need it but don't think they do, but a good fraction of the class does not need to learn the content you are teaching. The only remaining question is how to engage these people. I have seen good approaches to that problem and really, really terrible approaches, and it seems that most professors go for the terrible approaches. Unfortunately, engaging people who don't want to be there is a lot harder than just having a bunch of required tests. These students are not all wrong that some courses are BS hoops to jump through. Meet them in the middle. Teach them something.
- busyant 4y ago
  I know a lot of what I teach is not really relevant to students who aren't chemistry majors--I even say this UP FRONT at the beginning of the course. I tell the students that they should think of the course as a way of assessing whether they can think logically and critically about "weird things." Because life is full of weird things that need logical and critical analysis. In general, they appreciate my candor. That being said, in my experience, the students who cheat often delude themselves into thinking that they understand the material--and they really don't.* Then they seem shocked when they take a certification exam (where they have to leave phones at the door and are closely monitored) and they bomb the exam.* * I'm speaking in generalities here. I'm sure there are some cheaters who are being "smart" about their cheating.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    In the time I was at school, I heard of a lot more cheating than would be justified solely by people conserving time. I have recently seen studies that argue that 50-80% of students cheat at some point, and something like 10-20% cheat in every course they take. Personally, when I conserved time, I just accepted the bad grades - it was easier than trying to cheat and not get caught. The OP was talking about students cheating because they are not engaged with the material. I think that's only part of the problem with cheating: there are lots of other factors, like pressure to get a high GPA.

randomdata 4y ago

> I mean, they're delusional, but I understand the mindset for cheating. Parental (other similar) pressure can indeed be quite strong. Absent of that pressure they wouldn't be there in the first place, so perhaps it is not so much being delusional as a rational response to their environment? If they cheat their way through the parents are happy and then they can return to the life they otherwise would have lived. The time lost is unfortunate in some respects, but at the same time if you're cheating, the time investment likely isn't that great and an acceptable cost given the circumstances. > the kind of shit that makes every faculty member angry I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy.

busyant 4y ago
> I find it curious that the customer using the product in an unintended way would be upsetting to the vendor. What drives such emotions? In my businesses, I couldn't care less how the customer uses my product. If they're happy, I'm happy. There's a lot more going on here than maybe you realize. First, the students are not your only customers. The administration is also one of your customers. If you make the course TOO difficult and fail everyone, your "administration customer" will find a way to get rid of you. Conversely, if you make the course too easy and everyone gets to cheat and everyone gets an "A", then many students who pass your class may not pass various professional certification exams that are more rigorously controlled (i.e., no cheating). If that happens, then the school may lose accreditation for programs that you are associated with (i.e., if all the nursing majors fail their certification exam, your nursing program may get nuked). Then you get nuked. Third, whether you like it or not, your relationships with your students is something you have to deal with. Students who don't cheat have a tendency to get really upset if they find out you turn a blind eye to cheating. Happy cheating customers leads to unhappy honest customers. Fourth, if your fellow faculty members feel like you're going easy on the students to get favorable reviews (or because you're lazy or because you hate confrontation), they can make life unpleasant for you, too. They also aren't too happy if they teach upper level courses and you send a bunch of garbage students their way.
- randomdata 4y ago
  It seems that you're not managing your customers well. If, in any other business, you needed to adjust the behaviour of some customers to keep other customers happy you would provide incentives, like a price discount. You don't need to fail the cheaters, you just need to make it more appealing to not cheat to keep the non-cheaters happy. How are you doing that? Is there a financial discount to those who have shown to not cheat (or conversely a higher rate for those who wish to cheat)? If not, you might want to try a new business. You may not be cut out for the one you're in. The business world is not very forgiving, nor should it be. Those who can't adapt need to perish.
  - busyant 4y ago

pclmulqdq 4y ago

Some courses really are required bullshit to some students. A lot of professors don't realize this, but if you teach a required course, it is simple math to say that some of your students just don't need to learn what you are teaching. Sure, a lot of students do need it but don't think they do, but a good fraction of the class does not need to learn the content you are teaching. The only remaining question is how to engage these people. I have seen good approaches to that problem and really, really terrible approaches, and it seems that most professors go for the terrible approaches. Unfortunately, engaging people who don't want to be there is a lot harder than just having a bunch of required tests. These students are not all wrong that some courses are BS hoops to jump through. Meet them in the middle. Teach them something.

busyant 4y ago
I know a lot of what I teach is not really relevant to students who aren't chemistry majors--I even say this UP FRONT at the beginning of the course. I tell the students that they should think of the course as a way of assessing whether they can think logically and critically about "weird things." Because life is full of weird things that need logical and critical analysis. In general, they appreciate my candor. That being said, in my experience, the students who cheat often delude themselves into thinking that they understand the material--and they really don't.* Then they seem shocked when they take a certification exam (where they have to leave phones at the door and are closely monitored) and they bomb the exam.* * I'm speaking in generalities here. I'm sure there are some cheaters who are being "smart" about their cheating.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  In the time I was at school, I heard of a lot more cheating than would be justified solely by people conserving time. I have recently seen studies that argue that 50-80% of students cheat at some point, and something like 10-20% cheat in every course they take. Personally, when I conserved time, I just accepted the bad grades - it was easier than trying to cheat and not get caught. The OP was talking about students cheating because they are not engaged with the material. I think that's only part of the problem with cheating: there are lots of other factors, like pressure to get a high GPA.