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NFTs work and they allow artists to - make money off digital art in a global permissionless market (didn’t exist before) - easily charge royalties in perpetui

NFTs work and they allow artists to - make money off digital art in a global permissionless market (didn’t exist before) - easily charge royalties in perpetuity for resale of their art Some aspects of DeFi - the ones that were properly audited and whose function is not a ponzi derivative - work absolutely fine. Compound, AAVE, Uniswap, Curve Finance.

foepys 4y ago
> - easily charge royalties in perpetuity for resale of their art Can they really? The art itself is not recorded on any blockchain. Just the link and/or hash can be stored there because of costs. Both can change without noticeably modifying the art. Thus a working legal system is still required and blockchain does not provide any meaningful benefit over a standard contract.
- kranke155 4y ago
  Those two things don’t cancel each other out. The art being recorded on a blockchain or not doesn’t matter - what you’re selling in an NFT is a signature not the art. An NFT is a decoupling of the art and the signature, because digital art is infinitely reproducible. The NFT introduces scarcity - but only for an authentic signature (which can’t be faked) not the digital art itself. And want you’re saying is not necessarily true - my understanding is that some markets do place the art on IPFS, but I’d have to look into it’s exact working to know for sure. But I believe for the old Hic et Nunc that was the case. In this particular case - it is better than a standard contract because the previous method of authenticating work is hugely expensive for the artist and has immense gatekeeping. Minting an NFT takes 30 seconds. Getting you work into an art gallery takes months if not years of battling and requires other people to make the decision whether they want your art in their sales space or not. In crypto you can just do it yourself and figure out your own personal authentication method (usually twitter).
  - te_chris 4y ago
    Decoupling of the art and the signature??? Do you read what you write before you write it? There’s a reason NFTs are easy and gallery placements are hard: one has value
    - kranke155 4y ago
      people are making millions of dollars from NFTs, but sure. You're the determiner for what has value in the world.
      - dale_glass 4y ago
        The NFT market has been briefly popular and since then has cratered. Also there's a huge amount of wash trading, so most of that activity isn't even real.
        kranke155 4y ago
        Throwing the baby with the bath water. The baby is small and there is a lot of water, but the baby is there.
        dale_glass 4y ago
        I'm not sure how this comment answers what I said
        kranke155 4y ago
        There are real artists making real art and selling them on NFT marketplaces.
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    > In this particular case - it is better than a standard contract because the previous method of authenticating work is hugely expensive for the artist and has immense gatekeeping. Minting an NFT takes 30 seconds. As you said NFT is just a signature so how do the NFTs solve the problems of authenticating art?
    - kkielhofner 4y ago
      They don't. An example search from my NFT anti-fraud solution: https://fnftf.io/?results=982ce32629ebcbd7dce30baf2f84adafb5eb7233849f31509ba3909e07e91bbf https://fnftf.io/?results=982ce32629ebcbd7dce30baf2f84adafb5... So there you have it - dozens of copies of the same art across the same chain and other chains plus dozens of other low-quality "remixes" that don't qualify as an original work. Nothing in the space (other than solutions like mine) do anything to authenticate the content in any form or fashion. In fact, on FNFTF we make a pretty big deal of searches that only return one result (original and unique content) because it doesn't happen very often: https://fnftf.io/?results=81cd744ab237b0eb68fbe1702c82db9cdff8997abbb77efdc4f95f9bdf1e9716 https://fnftf.io/?results=81cd744ab237b0eb68fbe1702c82db9cdf... Shameless plug I suppose but there isn't anything else publicly available that shows just how bad and widespread this issue is.
    - kranke155 4y ago
      I'm sure what you mean. NFTs allow for a market for digital art, in that there's an immutable ledger where artists can say "I am selling 10 'signed artworks' of this piece". Because the ledger is known to be immutable, and it allows for transactions between users, you have a market where there wasn't one before. The problem of authenticating art before this, for a digital artist, was that you HAD to have a gallery do it with you in order for it to work. No one trusted anyone, not even the artist, to say that there would only be "10 copies" of that digital artwork, since they couldn't do any follow through if the artist decided to say there were ten copies but sold 10 000. This was an issue with digital art that was previously only solved by the reputation of X art gallery - the art gallery would say - "we certified only 10 copies, and our reputation as a gallery protects this artwork from being certified again". With NFTs you just do it. The problem was gatekeeping, the need for an "authority" to certify your signatures on digital art, and the process involved. NFTs are a click of a button and a few dollars to mint. Does that answer your question?
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    My NFT anti-fraud solution has ~195m NFTs indexed and analyzed (everything on Ethereum, Polygon, and Solana). Here's the breakdown of current storage methods across all of them: curl https://match.tovera.com/api/v0/stats/nft/storageMethods https://match.tovera.com/api/v0/stats/nft/storageMethods [ { "storage": "https", "ratio": "0.39163250000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "ipfs", "ratio": "0.58654950000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "unknown", "ratio": "0.00090250000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "chain", "ratio": "0.01584000000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "http", "ratio": "0.00507550000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" } ] 2% on chain (almost all SVGs), 60% on IPFS, and 40% on HTTPS (total above 100% because I rounded).
    - kranke155 4y ago
      Thank you for this. The fact that you did this shows that there is a potential for a solution for NFT/art copies. Hopefully markets will begin doing this themselves and stop this plague.
rcthompson 4y ago
Of all the artists I follow, not a single one has had anything good to say about NFTs. Their only interaction with NFTs has been dozens of scammers fraudulently minting NFTs of all their work, followed by exchanges putting the burden of proof on the artist to show that each individual NFT is fraudulent. Maybe there's some legitimate business happening in the art NFT space, but if so, it's a drop in an ocean of fraud.
- kranke155 4y ago
  There's huge amounts of legitimate business happening in NFTs. I would find it hard to imagine an argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate. I'm hoping a technical solution appears soon for fraud. NFT fraud is no different from a person on the street doing a high quality print of someone else's artwork, and unlike that situation, a technical solution for NFT fraud is conceivable.
  - zimpenfish 4y ago
    > I would find it hard to imagine an argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate. An argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate: https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beeple-art-buyer-and-his-nft-defi-scheme/ https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beepl...
jjulius 4y ago
>... easily charge royalties in perpetuity for resale of their art... Hi. Artist here. I have yet to actually see any example of this occurring with a piece of NFT art. Do you have an example of an NFT that is actively collecting royalties for the artist via resale?
- seibelj 4y ago
  https://opensea.io/collection/nickelodeon-rugrats-heyarnold-eth https://opensea.io/collection/nickelodeon-rugrats-heyarnold-... My company is one of the largest NFT companies. This is one of our projects. Millions of dollars in secondaries on OpenSea and our hosted marketplace at https://Nickelodeon.xyz/ https://Nickelodeon.xyz/ We collect all royalties and remit payment to the rights holders which include all artists and creators with residuals on Rugrats, of which there are many. They get their check quarterly along with all the other payments (movies, tshirts, video games, etc.) This isn’t exactly rocket science
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    So, are you saying that you run a centralized third party that is charged with collecting the royalties and passing it on to the artists? Because nowhere in the ERC-721 standard is there a way to differentiate between a "sale" and a "transfer between wallets". So tell me, please, exactly how "blockchain" is bringing "decentralization" to the art field. I am all ears.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      A sale happens in a marketplace. Marketplaces collect royalties and forward them to the address specified. We are indeed a centralized player, just as all NFT creators are centralized entities (i.e. people) but the assets trade on decentralized networks. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how all of this works and have a sneering, dismissive affect because this is something you don’t understand embraced by people who don’t care what you think.
      - 4y ago

foepys 4y ago

> - easily charge royalties in perpetuity for resale of their art Can they really? The art itself is not recorded on any blockchain. Just the link and/or hash can be stored there because of costs. Both can change without noticeably modifying the art. Thus a working legal system is still required and blockchain does not provide any meaningful benefit over a standard contract.

kranke155 4y ago
Those two things don’t cancel each other out. The art being recorded on a blockchain or not doesn’t matter - what you’re selling in an NFT is a signature not the art. An NFT is a decoupling of the art and the signature, because digital art is infinitely reproducible. The NFT introduces scarcity - but only for an authentic signature (which can’t be faked) not the digital art itself. And want you’re saying is not necessarily true - my understanding is that some markets do place the art on IPFS, but I’d have to look into it’s exact working to know for sure. But I believe for the old Hic et Nunc that was the case. In this particular case - it is better than a standard contract because the previous method of authenticating work is hugely expensive for the artist and has immense gatekeeping. Minting an NFT takes 30 seconds. Getting you work into an art gallery takes months if not years of battling and requires other people to make the decision whether they want your art in their sales space or not. In crypto you can just do it yourself and figure out your own personal authentication method (usually twitter).
- te_chris 4y ago
  Decoupling of the art and the signature??? Do you read what you write before you write it? There’s a reason NFTs are easy and gallery placements are hard: one has value
  - kranke155 4y ago
    people are making millions of dollars from NFTs, but sure. You're the determiner for what has value in the world.
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      The NFT market has been briefly popular and since then has cratered. Also there's a huge amount of wash trading, so most of that activity isn't even real.
      - kranke155 4y ago
        Throwing the baby with the bath water. The baby is small and there is a lot of water, but the baby is there.
        dale_glass 4y ago
        I'm not sure how this comment answers what I said
        kranke155 4y ago
        There are real artists making real art and selling them on NFT marketplaces.
- Kbelicius 4y ago
  > In this particular case - it is better than a standard contract because the previous method of authenticating work is hugely expensive for the artist and has immense gatekeeping. Minting an NFT takes 30 seconds. As you said NFT is just a signature so how do the NFTs solve the problems of authenticating art?
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    They don't. An example search from my NFT anti-fraud solution: https://fnftf.io/?results=982ce32629ebcbd7dce30baf2f84adafb5eb7233849f31509ba3909e07e91bbf https://fnftf.io/?results=982ce32629ebcbd7dce30baf2f84adafb5... So there you have it - dozens of copies of the same art across the same chain and other chains plus dozens of other low-quality "remixes" that don't qualify as an original work. Nothing in the space (other than solutions like mine) do anything to authenticate the content in any form or fashion. In fact, on FNFTF we make a pretty big deal of searches that only return one result (original and unique content) because it doesn't happen very often: https://fnftf.io/?results=81cd744ab237b0eb68fbe1702c82db9cdff8997abbb77efdc4f95f9bdf1e9716 https://fnftf.io/?results=81cd744ab237b0eb68fbe1702c82db9cdf... Shameless plug I suppose but there isn't anything else publicly available that shows just how bad and widespread this issue is.
  - kranke155 4y ago
    I'm sure what you mean. NFTs allow for a market for digital art, in that there's an immutable ledger where artists can say "I am selling 10 'signed artworks' of this piece". Because the ledger is known to be immutable, and it allows for transactions between users, you have a market where there wasn't one before. The problem of authenticating art before this, for a digital artist, was that you HAD to have a gallery do it with you in order for it to work. No one trusted anyone, not even the artist, to say that there would only be "10 copies" of that digital artwork, since they couldn't do any follow through if the artist decided to say there were ten copies but sold 10 000. This was an issue with digital art that was previously only solved by the reputation of X art gallery - the art gallery would say - "we certified only 10 copies, and our reputation as a gallery protects this artwork from being certified again". With NFTs you just do it. The problem was gatekeeping, the need for an "authority" to certify your signatures on digital art, and the process involved. NFTs are a click of a button and a few dollars to mint. Does that answer your question?
- kkielhofner 4y ago
  My NFT anti-fraud solution has ~195m NFTs indexed and analyzed (everything on Ethereum, Polygon, and Solana). Here's the breakdown of current storage methods across all of them: curl https://match.tovera.com/api/v0/stats/nft/storageMethods https://match.tovera.com/api/v0/stats/nft/storageMethods [ { "storage": "https", "ratio": "0.39163250000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "ipfs", "ratio": "0.58654950000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "unknown", "ratio": "0.00090250000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "chain", "ratio": "0.01584000000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" }, { "storage": "http", "ratio": "0.00507550000000000000", "counted_at": "2022-08-20T05:55:01.164Z" } ] 2% on chain (almost all SVGs), 60% on IPFS, and 40% on HTTPS (total above 100% because I rounded).
  - kranke155 4y ago
    Thank you for this. The fact that you did this shows that there is a potential for a solution for NFT/art copies. Hopefully markets will begin doing this themselves and stop this plague.

rcthompson 4y ago

Of all the artists I follow, not a single one has had anything good to say about NFTs. Their only interaction with NFTs has been dozens of scammers fraudulently minting NFTs of all their work, followed by exchanges putting the burden of proof on the artist to show that each individual NFT is fraudulent. Maybe there's some legitimate business happening in the art NFT space, but if so, it's a drop in an ocean of fraud.

kranke155 4y ago
There's huge amounts of legitimate business happening in NFTs. I would find it hard to imagine an argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate. I'm hoping a technical solution appears soon for fraud. NFT fraud is no different from a person on the street doing a high quality print of someone else's artwork, and unlike that situation, a technical solution for NFT fraud is conceivable.
- zimpenfish 4y ago
  > I would find it hard to imagine an argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate. An argument that Beeple's huge sale was somehow not legitimate: https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beeple-art-buyer-and-his-nft-defi-scheme/ https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beepl...

jjulius 4y ago

>... easily charge royalties in perpetuity for resale of their art... Hi. Artist here. I have yet to actually see any example of this occurring with a piece of NFT art. Do you have an example of an NFT that is actively collecting royalties for the artist via resale?

seibelj 4y ago
https://opensea.io/collection/nickelodeon-rugrats-heyarnold-eth https://opensea.io/collection/nickelodeon-rugrats-heyarnold-... My company is one of the largest NFT companies. This is one of our projects. Millions of dollars in secondaries on OpenSea and our hosted marketplace at https://Nickelodeon.xyz/ https://Nickelodeon.xyz/ We collect all royalties and remit payment to the rights holders which include all artists and creators with residuals on Rugrats, of which there are many. They get their check quarterly along with all the other payments (movies, tshirts, video games, etc.) This isn’t exactly rocket science
- polygamous_bat 4y ago
  So, are you saying that you run a centralized third party that is charged with collecting the royalties and passing it on to the artists? Because nowhere in the ERC-721 standard is there a way to differentiate between a "sale" and a "transfer between wallets". So tell me, please, exactly how "blockchain" is bringing "decentralization" to the art field. I am all ears.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    A sale happens in a marketplace. Marketplaces collect royalties and forward them to the address specified. We are indeed a centralized player, just as all NFT creators are centralized entities (i.e. people) but the assets trade on decentralized networks. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how all of this works and have a sneering, dismissive affect because this is something you don’t understand embraced by people who don’t care what you think.
    - 4y ago