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I don't think war is necessary (and looking at things like the "war on terror" that spawned a lot of rules, it might even do the opposite). Societies can do "d

I don't think war is necessary (and looking at things like the "war on terror" that spawned a lot of rules, it might even do the opposite). Societies can do "de-sprawling" of rules, but it isn't a frequent thing (the German civil code is kind of a reduction of lots of several codes into one, for example). There is probably also an element of aging societies becoming more risk averse, hence more rules and regulations.

_alxk 4y ago
The "war on terror", like the "war on drugs", is a misnomer though; it's not really a war (although a couple of wars were waged as part of it, or alongside it).
- RandomLensman 4y ago
  Fair enough. WW1 spawned things like DORA in the UK, for example. Edit: And WW2 saw another massive increase of the "state", so not sure war does generally shrink administrative systems.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    If you lose the war decisively, you have a chance to rebuild the state from scratch, including the legal system. As a winner, though, you face the task of trying to shrink an administrative system that just won a war.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Obvious examples are Germany and Japan after WW2.
      - inglor_cz 4y ago
        Another interesting point is Switzerland after 1848. They had a very small-scale civil war which made them rethink their political structure. Or the Austrian empire in 1866, which lost a major war against Prussia and was forced to reform itself into a dual Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Which was somewhat more competitive and liberal than its predecessor and if it avoided other wars, it might in some form survive until today.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        Neither Germany or Japan stand out as being societies with minimal bureaucracy and unnecessary/intrusive regulation. Singapore (as a state that had to rebuild considerably after war) is arguably an even more extreme example.
        dredmorbius 4y ago
        The point is that any such bureaucracy is recently formed and not a legacy of pre-1945 statutes.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Perhaps but war was posited of a method of "clearing the books" and allowing significant reform. If that were true you'd expect such societies to be less weighed down by bureaucracy than others that had no such opportunity.
        dredmorbius 4y ago
        Clearing of books has no bearing whatsover on subsequent re-writing of them. However if the present legislative burden is excessively oppressive, a war, revolution, or reconstitution might address same. Your argument is a non sequitur.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Germany and Japan have had reputations as being somewhat bureaucractic for decades though, which says to me war had no lasting impact, if any at all. I.e. a very expensive way to achieve nothing.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        They were post-WW2. The German Miracle in particular came about when Germany went full free market as a way to recover from the economy being burned to the ground. This boom lasted until 1970 when the socialists were voted into power, and on came the taxes and hamstringing. The Japanese economy immediately after WW2 was run by American leftist academics, who refused to allow big business to operate. The economy flatlined. Until that was rescinded, and the Japanese free market economic boom began and ran up into the 80s.
dredmorbius 4y ago
Notionally the "wars" on drugs and terror are more akin to the Islamic principle of jihad, in the sense of a struggle, rather than of military domination, occupation, and conquest. In the case of World War II, numerous governments were created from whole cloth following the war, amongst conquored territories, in newly-created states, and even amongst some of the winners. Notably, Japan had a constitution imposed on it by the United States, which largely exists to the present day. Some traditional institutions were preserved (e.g., the emperor), but in almost entirely symbolic form. Germany likewise was reconstituted under a new government, as was Italy. Even France saw a new government formed (the Fifth Republic) in 1958. The states of the Eastern bloc were reconstituted under Communist rule as Soviet satellites. India, Indonesia, the Phillipines, and several Arabic states received independence. The state of Israel was formed. Much of Africa decolonised in the 1950s and 1960s. There was of course some continuity through all of this, but in large part, new governments emerged and old laws were often voided.
- RandomLensman 4y ago
  But through all of that the German civil code after WW2 still looked quite similar to the one pre-WW1, e.g, rules on how people transact or private property had huge continuity. Isn't the question not that laws etc. change but if there is true reduction of the total?

_alxk 4y ago

The "war on terror", like the "war on drugs", is a misnomer though; it's not really a war (although a couple of wars were waged as part of it, or alongside it).

RandomLensman 4y ago
Fair enough. WW1 spawned things like DORA in the UK, for example. Edit: And WW2 saw another massive increase of the "state", so not sure war does generally shrink administrative systems.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  If you lose the war decisively, you have a chance to rebuild the state from scratch, including the legal system. As a winner, though, you face the task of trying to shrink an administrative system that just won a war.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Obvious examples are Germany and Japan after WW2.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      Another interesting point is Switzerland after 1848. They had a very small-scale civil war which made them rethink their political structure. Or the Austrian empire in 1866, which lost a major war against Prussia and was forced to reform itself into a dual Austro-Hungarian monarchy. Which was somewhat more competitive and liberal than its predecessor and if it avoided other wars, it might in some form survive until today.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Neither Germany or Japan stand out as being societies with minimal bureaucracy and unnecessary/intrusive regulation. Singapore (as a state that had to rebuild considerably after war) is arguably an even more extreme example.
      - dredmorbius 4y ago
        The point is that any such bureaucracy is recently formed and not a legacy of pre-1945 statutes.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Perhaps but war was posited of a method of "clearing the books" and allowing significant reform. If that were true you'd expect such societies to be less weighed down by bureaucracy than others that had no such opportunity.
        dredmorbius 4y ago
        Clearing of books has no bearing whatsover on subsequent re-writing of them. However if the present legislative burden is excessively oppressive, a war, revolution, or reconstitution might address same. Your argument is a non sequitur.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Germany and Japan have had reputations as being somewhat bureaucractic for decades though, which says to me war had no lasting impact, if any at all. I.e. a very expensive way to achieve nothing.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        They were post-WW2. The German Miracle in particular came about when Germany went full free market as a way to recover from the economy being burned to the ground. This boom lasted until 1970 when the socialists were voted into power, and on came the taxes and hamstringing. The Japanese economy immediately after WW2 was run by American leftist academics, who refused to allow big business to operate. The economy flatlined. Until that was rescinded, and the Japanese free market economic boom began and ran up into the 80s.

dredmorbius 4y ago

Notionally the "wars" on drugs and terror are more akin to the Islamic principle of jihad, in the sense of a struggle, rather than of military domination, occupation, and conquest. In the case of World War II, numerous governments were created from whole cloth following the war, amongst conquored territories, in newly-created states, and even amongst some of the winners. Notably, Japan had a constitution imposed on it by the United States, which largely exists to the present day. Some traditional institutions were preserved (e.g., the emperor), but in almost entirely symbolic form. Germany likewise was reconstituted under a new government, as was Italy. Even France saw a new government formed (the Fifth Republic) in 1958. The states of the Eastern bloc were reconstituted under Communist rule as Soviet satellites. India, Indonesia, the Phillipines, and several Arabic states received independence. The state of Israel was formed. Much of Africa decolonised in the 1950s and 1960s. There was of course some continuity through all of this, but in large part, new governments emerged and old laws were often voided.

RandomLensman 4y ago
But through all of that the German civil code after WW2 still looked quite similar to the one pre-WW1, e.g, rules on how people transact or private property had huge continuity. Isn't the question not that laws etc. change but if there is true reduction of the total?