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> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And un

> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. Involving other people in your suicide, trying to get them to validate your decision, is deeply wrong. It's far worse than things like "emotional burden on your family" like suicidees are often accused of inflicting. It's no wonder that after this has been law for a while, doctor's moral sentiments are sufficiently sabotaged that they start encouraging it for people they see as a burden.

d110af5ccf 4y ago
> At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. How? Sure, the doctor probably didn't actively recommend it. But medical costs could very well be a significant factor in such an action.
blooalien 4y ago
Except that for some of us, society has already decided for us that our life isn't worth living (often without even knowing the first thing about us other than that we currently this instant don't have a bunch of money to give away to others who might be able to save us from suffering or dying), by denying many of us basic medical care (in so-called "rich" nations, even), yet the general consensus seems to be that while we apparently don't deserve to live, we also don't deserve a dignified death, but rather ongoing and growing misery and pain until we either die of "natural" causes (societal neglect) or take our own lives in some messy and possibly dangerous way.
- vintermann 4y ago
  That's a separate issue as I see it. It isn't helped by doctors with expenses targets to meet "giving you information" on how they can help you end your life.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
> If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. That's is _not_ what is being asked of the doctors. They are being asked to determine whether the patient truly believes their life isn't worth living. They are trying to determine if the patient is clear of mind in his or her decision-making. It would be unprofessional and _wrong_ of a doctor to somehow make this decision about them. Frankly I think you have it entirely backwards. The patients are trying to remove the state's prerogative to block their suicide. They aren't asking you to validate their decision; they are trying to remove you from the equation entirely. They want to be allowed to make decisions about their bodies and their lives _themselves_. I honestly find your position exceedingly selfish and callous. Your personal feelings of suicide simply do not matter when it comes to others' choices about how they'd like their lives you end.
- vintermann 4y ago
  You are calling me heartless for suggesting that suicidal people often crave approval for their decision. I can't see how that's heartless unless we ARE expected to support their decision, which you say we aren't. My personal feelings about suicide become relevant when others start involving me in their suicide. I can't just "get out of the way" when I am put in that position. (The state has already gotten out of the way, as long as suicide is legal, which ofc. it should be) The elephant in the room is that most assisted suicides, including the one in this article, happen with people who would be capable of doing it on their own.
  - CogitoCogito 4y ago
    > My personal feelings about suicide become relevant when others start involving me in their suicide. I'm really confused. I mean I assume you must be a doctor right? If not, literally none of this makes any sense since you're not being included in anything. Regardless, your job as a doctor would be to determine whether a terminal patient making a decision to end his or her life is clear of mind. That is it. You wouldn't be approving of their suicide. Your position is basically the epitome of selfishness. You are taking something that is not about you and making it about you. Your emotions simply do not matter. Grow up and understand that the world doesn't revolve around you. People shouldn't have to go through unnecessary suffering because you for some reason take their own entirely personal decisions about their own lives and make it somehow about you.

d110af5ccf 4y ago

> At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. How? Sure, the doctor probably didn't actively recommend it. But medical costs could very well be a significant factor in such an action.

blooalien 4y ago

Except that for some of us, society has already decided for us that our life isn't worth living (often without even knowing the first thing about us other than that we currently this instant don't have a bunch of money to give away to others who might be able to save us from suffering or dying), by denying many of us basic medical care (in so-called "rich" nations, even), yet the general consensus seems to be that while we apparently don't deserve to live, we also don't deserve a dignified death, but rather ongoing and growing misery and pain until we either die of "natural" causes (societal neglect) or take our own lives in some messy and possibly dangerous way.

vintermann 4y ago
That's a separate issue as I see it. It isn't helped by doctors with expenses targets to meet "giving you information" on how they can help you end your life.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

> If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. That's is _not_ what is being asked of the doctors. They are being asked to determine whether the patient truly believes their life isn't worth living. They are trying to determine if the patient is clear of mind in his or her decision-making. It would be unprofessional and _wrong_ of a doctor to somehow make this decision about them. Frankly I think you have it entirely backwards. The patients are trying to remove the state's prerogative to block their suicide. They aren't asking you to validate their decision; they are trying to remove you from the equation entirely. They want to be allowed to make decisions about their bodies and their lives _themselves_. I honestly find your position exceedingly selfish and callous. Your personal feelings of suicide simply do not matter when it comes to others' choices about how they'd like their lives you end.

vintermann 4y ago
You are calling me heartless for suggesting that suicidal people often crave approval for their decision. I can't see how that's heartless unless we ARE expected to support their decision, which you say we aren't. My personal feelings about suicide become relevant when others start involving me in their suicide. I can't just "get out of the way" when I am put in that position. (The state has already gotten out of the way, as long as suicide is legal, which ofc. it should be) The elephant in the room is that most assisted suicides, including the one in this article, happen with people who would be capable of doing it on their own.
- CogitoCogito 4y ago
  > My personal feelings about suicide become relevant when others start involving me in their suicide. I'm really confused. I mean I assume you must be a doctor right? If not, literally none of this makes any sense since you're not being included in anything. Regardless, your job as a doctor would be to determine whether a terminal patient making a decision to end his or her life is clear of mind. That is it. You wouldn't be approving of their suicide. Your position is basically the epitome of selfishness. You are taking something that is not about you and making it about you. Your emotions simply do not matter. Grow up and understand that the world doesn't revolve around you. People shouldn't have to go through unnecessary suffering because you for some reason take their own entirely personal decisions about their own lives and make it somehow about you.