5 ms·

I am very torn by these developments. A dozen plus years ago someone close to me had ALS, a horribly vile disease that to this day is a death sentence upon dia

I am very torn by these developments. A dozen plus years ago someone close to me had ALS, a horribly vile disease that to this day is a death sentence upon diagnosis. Think of a judge saying to you "you will serve two years of daily punishment each day worse than the previous after which you will die". Medical care is capable of sustaining life well beyond the capabilities of the body by itself. On the other hand, this should not be available to someone who has "hearing loss" and is possibly not in a position to make good decisions.

DangitBobby 4y ago
You might be surprised the suffering hearing loss can cause. I remember a story about a man who killed himself to make the ringing in his ears stop [1]. And if you decide their suffering doesn't make the cut and don't provide people with a way out, you might find they'll just take matters into their own hands. 1. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376787/Tinnitus-sufferer-shot-dead-stop-screaming-ears.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376787/Tinnitus-su...
ur-whale 4y ago
> On the other hand, this should not be available to someone who has "hearing loss" Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? > and is possibly not in a position to make good decisions. Who are you to tell?
- manholio 4y ago
  He had a documented history of depression. By definition, he was not in sound mind, there is ample precedent of people suffering from depression, trying and failing to commit suicide, and later recovering and thanking those around them for saving them. This idea that "one's mind is sovereign over their destiny" is unsustainable in practice. There are many versions of it floating around, for example related to gun control issues. You just can't create policies that ignore the reality that a large portion of people are not rational a large fraction of time.
  - srinivgp 4y ago
    If we prevented all suicides there would be _well more than ample_ precedent of people trying to commit _and being stopped from_ committing suicide and later hating everyone for keeping them in hell. You can't ignore downsides just 'cause you see upsides.
  - ksaj 4y ago
    The question I have is, are they thanking people for saving their life, or simply thanking them for showing them some love. For enough cases, and especially this one, once that love-in wears off, it's back to figuring out how to die. Wanting to die, and appreciating the expression of love in your direction, are not opposites.
- vintermann 4y ago
  > Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. Involving other people in your suicide, trying to get them to validate your decision, is deeply wrong. It's far worse than things like "emotional burden on your family" like suicidees are often accused of inflicting. It's no wonder that after this has been law for a while, doctor's moral sentiments are sufficiently sabotaged that they start encouraging it for people they see as a burden.
  - d110af5ccf 4y ago
    > At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. How? Sure, the doctor probably didn't actively recommend it. But medical costs could very well be a significant factor in such an action.
  - blooalien 4y ago
    Except that for some of us, society has already decided for us that our life isn't worth living (often without even knowing the first thing about us other than that we currently this instant don't have a bunch of money to give away to others who might be able to save us from suffering or dying), by denying many of us basic medical care (in so-called "rich" nations, even), yet the general consensus seems to be that while we apparently don't deserve to live, we also don't deserve a dignified death, but rather ongoing and growing misery and pain until we either die of "natural" causes (societal neglect) or take our own lives in some messy and possibly dangerous way.
    - vintermann 4y ago
      That's a separate issue as I see it. It isn't helped by doctors with expenses targets to meet "giving you information" on how they can help you end your life.
_Algernon_ 4y ago
Why should anyone else than the victim have the right to decide what suffering is "good enough" for them?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jpambrun 4y ago
Without working earing you can get severely isolated which make you life miserable. My mother is loosing hearing, but she lack the mental abilities to learn sign language or even lip reading. She doesn't have the strength and memory to read book. Her existence will soon be reduced to looking at a white wall for most weaken hours.
LorenPechtel 4y ago
Note that it was not only hearing loss but he was losing vision also--at that point you have no high bandwidth input channel, effectively little better than a life sentence of solitary confinement.

DangitBobby 4y ago

You might be surprised the suffering hearing loss can cause. I remember a story about a man who killed himself to make the ringing in his ears stop [1]. And if you decide their suffering doesn't make the cut and don't provide people with a way out, you might find they'll just take matters into their own hands. 1. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376787/Tinnitus-sufferer-shot-dead-stop-screaming-ears.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1376787/Tinnitus-su...

ur-whale 4y ago

> On the other hand, this should not be available to someone who has "hearing loss" Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? > and is possibly not in a position to make good decisions. Who are you to tell?

manholio 4y ago
He had a documented history of depression. By definition, he was not in sound mind, there is ample precedent of people suffering from depression, trying and failing to commit suicide, and later recovering and thanking those around them for saving them. This idea that "one's mind is sovereign over their destiny" is unsustainable in practice. There are many versions of it floating around, for example related to gun control issues. You just can't create policies that ignore the reality that a large portion of people are not rational a large fraction of time.
- srinivgp 4y ago
  If we prevented all suicides there would be _well more than ample_ precedent of people trying to commit _and being stopped from_ committing suicide and later hating everyone for keeping them in hell. You can't ignore downsides just 'cause you see upsides.
- ksaj 4y ago
  The question I have is, are they thanking people for saving their life, or simply thanking them for showing them some love. For enough cases, and especially this one, once that love-in wears off, it's back to figuring out how to die. Wanting to die, and appreciating the expression of love in your direction, are not opposites.
vintermann 4y ago
> Why? Should they jump off a bridge instead? At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. And unlike in the usual AS hypotheticals, (but like most actual assisted suicides), he was perfectly capable of it. He didn't need assistance. If you say, "my life is not worth living", maybe that's your call to make. But I think it would be very, very, wrong of me to answer, "Yes, your life is not worth living". Especially if I was your doctor. Involving other people in your suicide, trying to get them to validate your decision, is deeply wrong. It's far worse than things like "emotional burden on your family" like suicidees are often accused of inflicting. It's no wonder that after this has been law for a while, doctor's moral sentiments are sufficiently sabotaged that they start encouraging it for people they see as a burden.
- d110af5ccf 4y ago
  > At least then there will be less lingering suspicion that he was pressured into it for being a cost point. How? Sure, the doctor probably didn't actively recommend it. But medical costs could very well be a significant factor in such an action.
- blooalien 4y ago
  Except that for some of us, society has already decided for us that our life isn't worth living (often without even knowing the first thing about us other than that we currently this instant don't have a bunch of money to give away to others who might be able to save us from suffering or dying), by denying many of us basic medical care (in so-called "rich" nations, even), yet the general consensus seems to be that while we apparently don't deserve to live, we also don't deserve a dignified death, but rather ongoing and growing misery and pain until we either die of "natural" causes (societal neglect) or take our own lives in some messy and possibly dangerous way.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    That's a separate issue as I see it. It isn't helped by doctors with expenses targets to meet "giving you information" on how they can help you end your life.

_Algernon_ 4y ago

Why should anyone else than the victim have the right to decide what suffering is "good enough" for them?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jpambrun 4y ago

Without working earing you can get severely isolated which make you life miserable. My mother is loosing hearing, but she lack the mental abilities to learn sign language or even lip reading. She doesn't have the strength and memory to read book. Her existence will soon be reduced to looking at a white wall for most weaken hours.

LorenPechtel 4y ago

Note that it was not only hearing loss but he was losing vision also--at that point you have no high bandwidth input channel, effectively little better than a life sentence of solitary confinement.