20 ms·
Most laser printer printed pages have tracking watermark
- Tichy 15y agoThat is really, really old news :-)
- Nrsolis 15y agoREALLY old news. The EFF has something on this and cracked the code a long time ago: http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/printers/ http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/printers/ http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/printers/docucolor/ http://w2.eff.org/Privacy/printers/docucolor/
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- unreal37 15y agoAnd kind of a pointless story. The guy sent off a couple of letters, and got a form letter response from everyone he talked to. And gave up. Not really HN worthy.
- mhyee 15y agoHe gave up in the end, but he did persevere for three months and escalated it up to the president of Lexmark Canada. I found the story pretty interesting.
- dsr_ 15y agoAhem. Most COLOR laser printers have tracking "watermarks". It's because the US Treasury frowns on printing your own replica currency, which would be unastonishingly easy to do with a color scanner and printer.
- aMoniker 15y agoAll the while they print as much as they like. Hypocrites.
- mindslight 15y agoActually, it's because consumer electronics manufacturers don't have the spines to stand up for their customers.
- brador 15y agoWhy should they. It's YOUR government. You do it.
- mindslight 15y agoWhat do you mean it's mine? I didn't create, buy, or even sanction it. The only options I have are avoidance and general scorn. Printer manufacturers are the ones voluntarily saying 'yes, master'. I have no control over any aspect of that situation.
- jasonlotito 15y agoThe US government is made up of people like you. If you really want to enact change, you can. Government officials don't just become government officials. > I didn't create, buy, or even sanction it. But, you choose to live beneath it. If you don't like the rules, you can work to change it. This is a democracy though, so don't think that everyone will blindly agree with you. This obviously assumes you are an American. If you aren't, then I really don't see the issue.
- mindslight 15y ago> The US government is made up of people like you The whole is not merely the sum of the parts. And the people making up the government are nothing like me. For one, they believe government is a means to itself, while I do not. > If you really want to enact change, you can Citation needed. > you choose to live beneath ithh A one-possibility choice is not a choice. Your unstated assumption is that my personal life should be dependent on the government. I reject this. Also, there are not many places on Earth which aren't controlled by the US govt. > If you don't like the rules, you can work to change it And waste my life endlessly fighting others who wish to enforce their differing will on everyone, while we all perpetuate the democracy virus? That's how to become part of the problem!
- kevinpet 15y agoReminds me of the typewriter registration in East Germany.
- droithomme 15y agoYep, good observation, it really is the same thing, and amazing people put up with it.
- nekojima 15y agoIn East Germany you didn't have a chance (unless you wanted to be in prison or even more surveillance) and nowadays, most people don't know this is occurring and so its not an issue. There might even be a bias against publicizing it by media, as the encoding has assisted police in several cases to track down criminals or alleged criminals.
- umarmung 15y agoI wonder if these "security" features are on imported Chinese printers (from Chinese manufacturers). It is so easy to order generic products from Hong Kong, even online, these days, for example.
- Natsu 15y agoWell-known, I'm afraid. You can find more information here: http://www.eff.org/issues/printers http://www.eff.org/issues/printers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_steganography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_steganography It's probably related to the counter-measures against printing currency: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/photoshop-and-currency https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/photoshop-and-curr... There's some interesting information about what causes an image to be detected as currency here: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/projects/currency/ https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sjm217/projects/currency/
- nobody31415926 15y agoWell known among geeks - is it well known among the public? I'm not talking paranoid - the government are spying on me - public, but what about doctors, lawyers, pharmacy, social services, employment tribunals, unions. There is a lot of confidential information I can track about you by simply pulling plank bits of paper or envelopes from your garbage.
- tripzilch 15y agoWell-known indeed (at least, I followed it with keen interest when it came out), but I think it's good that this resurfaces as I really don't think it got enough attention the first time around. Personally I think the most worrying bits of data are first the time stamp, and second the printer serial number. I say serial number is second because in a criminal investigation phorensics can also get a "fingerprint" of the printer by tracking imperfections in the way it's printed. But the timestamp of when something was printed is definitely new information that otherwise would not be there and in certain circumstances would not want to be leaked.
- _delirium 15y agoBut the timestamp of when something was printed is definitely new information that otherwise would not be there and in certain circumstances would not want to be leaked. In particular, not only leaked to police, but in the case of printers where the dot pattern's been decoded, to anyone who might care when your document was printed.
- srik 15y agoHere's a list of printers that do/dont do that, compiled by EFF. https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-display-tracking-dots https://www.eff.org/pages/list-printers-which-do-or-do-not-d...
- droithomme 15y agoYeah, I only buy lasers that don't have them, there are lists out there of which ones. The yellow doesn't photocopy well so if you have to use such a printer, you can erase the tracking dots on your anonymously distributed pamphlets by monochrome photocopying at Kinkos the master copy you produced with your home or business laser.
- daralthus 15y agoMake sure you destroy the copier too. :) http://digitaljournal.com/article/291894 http://digitaljournal.com/article/291894
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- ajays 15y agoOn a similar (but tangential) note: US currency notes have similar yellow circles, which are detected by photocopiers, which, in turn, then either (a) refuse to photocopy them, or (b) mangle the copy (put vertical bars through it). Try photocopying a $20 bill on a copier and see for yourself.
- kijin 15y agoCareful there. The copier might automatically notify the Secret Service, too. You never know with today's network-enabled copiers...
- jrockway 15y agoI doubt that the Secret Service will get there quickly enough to arrest you. I also doubt that they would have enough evidence to arrest you for anything. Putting a $20 bill in a copy machine is not a crime.
- UrLicht 15y agoI did that with a $50 bill once on my company's big office copier just to see what it would look like (uh, I swear) and was pretty floored when I saw the copy come out with stripes through it. I tried it with every other denomination I could find, and if I remember correctly bills at or below $5 don't have that feature (at least not at the time).
- uiri 15y agoDo inkjet printed pages produce similar watermarks? Or is it just laser ones?
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- mhyee 15y agoFrom the EFF pages linked to in this discussion and Brahm's first post, it seems only colour laser printers have the watermark. (Also http://seeingyellow.com/ http://seeingyellow.com/). So black and white laser and inkjet should hopefully be fine.
- blahedo 15y agoA good story, but you should really start reading it from the beginning: http://brahmsyellowdots.blogspot.com/2008/10/it-begins.html http://brahmsyellowdots.blogspot.com/2008/10/it-begins.html
- Aloha 15y agoOr just use a Black and White Laser Printer? Really, anything you print, no matter what it is printed on with enough time an effort could be track back to at least the model and type of printer.
- peterknego 15y agoOne could mess up "the system" by printing several times on the same sheet of paper (possibly also changing orientation top-down).
- ck2 15y agoThe real crime here is there is no documented law these companies are following. They are obviously doing it under legal pressure - so where is the law on the books? This means it's a secret law that (at least the) American public is unable to inspect and attempt to abolish. Perhaps it's a secret part of the DMCA? What other laws do we not know about?
- tomkarlo 15y agoWhy do you assume there has to be a law or legal pressure? Lots of industries adopt practices like this to _avoid_ a situation where something will become a matter of law, because it has little or no impact on the sales of their products. If you're a color laser printer manufacturer, agreeing to do this is probably a lot better than maybe having the government regulate sales of your product or otherwise add red tape.
- grandalf 15y agoWouldn't it be easier to just add additional faint yellow dots to make the intended pattern impossible to determine?
- blahedo 15y agoThis is a great idea. Once you know the grid pattern, you could probably just overlay your documents with faint yellow dots on that grid; if noticeable at all it would come across as a very faint yellow haze, but that's a tradeoff.
- code_duck 15y agoI'm far more interested in what may exist along these lines for digital cameras.
- lallysingh 15y agoSo, how does this work with duplication equipment? Can I print an original and color-copy it? Edit: Or just add yellow dots to the document I'm printing?
- giardini 15y agoAnother surprising fact: most digital copiers have a hard drive and they usually aren't wiped when removed from service. So everything you copied at the office or at FedEx Office is available even after you leave: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/19/eveningnews/main6412439.shtml http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/19/eveningnews/main64...