6 ms·

Dense US metro areas are desperately in need of better mass transit, the quality of life increase would be substantial for tons of people.

olivermarks 4y ago
The crime on bay area transit is rapidly getting worse. This is a huge issue to overcome regardless of how fast or slow the train is going https://www.ktvu.com/news/bart-passenger-nearly-raped-physically-attacked-during-daytime-commute-to-work https://www.ktvu.com/news/bart-passenger-nearly-raped-physic...
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  Ok, so public transit is one of the public spaces that the collapse of the US social safety net and absurdly violent socio-economic inequality comes to light in. If you think that is an argument against public transit you don't even remotely understand the problem.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    Arguing for or against public transit is irrelevant if using it is unsafe because of lack of law enforcement that will prevent criminals who chose not to abide by laws harming travelers. The 'US social safety net' has little to do with this - violent, opportunistic thugs use public transport to bring huge quantities of drugs into SF every day using BART, while terrorizing passengers largely with impunity. This may seem like hyperbole but a quick look at local news will confirm this.
    - dumpsterlid 4y ago
      "The 'US social safety net' has little to do with this - violent, opportunistic thugs use public transport to bring huge quantities of drugs into SF every day using BART, while terrorizing passengers largely with impunity. This may seem like hyperbole but a quick look at local news will confirm this." The reason US society is fucked up is largely because of this kind of thinking. The US social safety net has everything to do with crime. The vast, overwhelming amount of crimes aren't committed because people are bored or are disney villains and like being evil. Crime happens primarily when people are desperate and the US is grinding innumerable people into dust right now. "More cops/Tough On Crime" is a stupid af way to deal with crime because it is a form of reactive violence against the symptoms of a suffering society that doesn't attempt to understand the root causes.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  There is less than zero political will to fix it, or even honestly address it. BART Withholding Surveillance Videos Of Crime To Avoid 'Stereotypes‘ (2017): https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-withholding-surveillance-videos-of-crime-to-avoid-stereotypes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-withholding-s...
  - electriclove 4y ago
    Same mentality that is downvoting the comment mentioning crime.. :(
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
    Reality does not conform to the politics du jour, ergo, we must suppress reality.
- electriclove 4y ago
  Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Our rail systems need to be safe if we want to convince people to use them.
- hayst4ck 4y ago
  On one hand I see why you are being downvoted, on the other, for people who haven't lived in San Francisco, crime on public transport is legitimately real. I personally have friends who have had bikes stolen from buses and phones stolen from their hands. A lot of the stations smell like urine. There are signs of drug abuse, and some of the stops don't feel very safe at all. I've watched women be sexually harassed on busses and have had friends groped at bus stops. The public transportation experience in San Francisco is not just about the price or the timing, but about the safety and cleanliness too. Seattle buses have been known to be de facto homeless shelters, particularly the late night bus. On one hand, I understand the "what right do we have to kick homeless people off busses" argument. How are people supposed to get their lives back together in a car country if they don't have a car? On the other hand, I've been on buses with urine smelling seats or urine streaming down the bus and if I am asked to make a sacrifice by tolerating that to support another person, I will just avoid public transportation instead because I have the means to do so. The vast majority of people in west coast mega cities who can, use uber, bikes, or their own car. Public transportation in San Francisco is often seen as a last resort. In foreign countries everyone rides the public transportation, so there is public demand for quality. Our transportation situation results in the economic classes most able to effect political power uncaring about the infrastructural rot that is occurring since they can afford to avoid it and it's not a better, more predictable offering than just driving yourself.
  - hedora 4y ago
    All the BART stations have public restrooms, but they closed them after 9/11 for "security" reasons. It might finally be time to consider reopening them.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - olivermarks 4y ago
      They did refurb and reopen a public rest room at the Powell Street muni/bart station in February at enormous expense https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/02/02/bart-reopens-bathroom-shuttered-for-20-years-bringing-much-needed-rider-relief/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/02/02/bart-reopens-bathroom... They are now used extensively by homeless for a variety of activities.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
LA to SF is not a "dense metro area". It's inter-city.
- blamazon 4y ago
  I think dumpsterlid is proposing to focus on commuter-dense-metro systems rather than inter-city.
  - soheil 4y ago
    I'm not sure at all if that's what's being proposed. I think both are being advocated and that's why that makes no sense since as the OP suggested there are vast voids in between dense metros in the US.
soheil 4y ago
It's not clear if you're saying mass transit within the metros or also to other metros. It sounds like you're trying to imply the later by a way of using the former as a reason. The distances in the US between major population centers are vast, far more than what the average person from other regions of the world would likely imagine them to be.
- dumpsterlid 4y ago
  I am so bored of people repeating the "but... trains will never work for rancher joe out in North Dakota! The US is too big for mass transit and trains". Yes there are very empty places in the US, turns out though that the vast majority of people don't live in those places. The dense places in the US are dense and massive like anywhere else in the world, and if suburban sprawl makes them somewhat more spread out that is just pointing out how bad the status quo is with city planning/mass transit. Also.. ok so the distance between two cities is vast... a highspeed train is far more efficient at transporting people (at absurdly higher volumes) over a distance than aircraft are. If it is a popular route between cities I dont see how distance negates this inherent advantage. Yes, if we we talking hugeeee distances that means a massive infrastructure investment but there would still be a major advantage in the end?

olivermarks 4y ago

The crime on bay area transit is rapidly getting worse. This is a huge issue to overcome regardless of how fast or slow the train is going https://www.ktvu.com/news/bart-passenger-nearly-raped-physically-attacked-during-daytime-commute-to-work https://www.ktvu.com/news/bart-passenger-nearly-raped-physic...

dumpsterlid 4y ago
Ok, so public transit is one of the public spaces that the collapse of the US social safety net and absurdly violent socio-economic inequality comes to light in. If you think that is an argument against public transit you don't even remotely understand the problem.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  Arguing for or against public transit is irrelevant if using it is unsafe because of lack of law enforcement that will prevent criminals who chose not to abide by laws harming travelers. The 'US social safety net' has little to do with this - violent, opportunistic thugs use public transport to bring huge quantities of drugs into SF every day using BART, while terrorizing passengers largely with impunity. This may seem like hyperbole but a quick look at local news will confirm this.
  - dumpsterlid 4y ago
    "The 'US social safety net' has little to do with this - violent, opportunistic thugs use public transport to bring huge quantities of drugs into SF every day using BART, while terrorizing passengers largely with impunity. This may seem like hyperbole but a quick look at local news will confirm this." The reason US society is fucked up is largely because of this kind of thinking. The US social safety net has everything to do with crime. The vast, overwhelming amount of crimes aren't committed because people are bored or are disney villains and like being evil. Crime happens primarily when people are desperate and the US is grinding innumerable people into dust right now. "More cops/Tough On Crime" is a stupid af way to deal with crime because it is a form of reactive violence against the symptoms of a suffering society that doesn't attempt to understand the root causes.
deepdriver 4y ago
There is less than zero political will to fix it, or even honestly address it. BART Withholding Surveillance Videos Of Crime To Avoid 'Stereotypes‘ (2017): https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-withholding-surveillance-videos-of-crime-to-avoid-stereotypes/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/bart-withholding-s...
- electriclove 4y ago
  Same mentality that is downvoting the comment mentioning crime.. :(
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
  Reality does not conform to the politics du jour, ergo, we must suppress reality.
electriclove 4y ago
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. Our rail systems need to be safe if we want to convince people to use them.
hayst4ck 4y ago
On one hand I see why you are being downvoted, on the other, for people who haven't lived in San Francisco, crime on public transport is legitimately real. I personally have friends who have had bikes stolen from buses and phones stolen from their hands. A lot of the stations smell like urine. There are signs of drug abuse, and some of the stops don't feel very safe at all. I've watched women be sexually harassed on busses and have had friends groped at bus stops. The public transportation experience in San Francisco is not just about the price or the timing, but about the safety and cleanliness too. Seattle buses have been known to be de facto homeless shelters, particularly the late night bus. On one hand, I understand the "what right do we have to kick homeless people off busses" argument. How are people supposed to get their lives back together in a car country if they don't have a car? On the other hand, I've been on buses with urine smelling seats or urine streaming down the bus and if I am asked to make a sacrifice by tolerating that to support another person, I will just avoid public transportation instead because I have the means to do so. The vast majority of people in west coast mega cities who can, use uber, bikes, or their own car. Public transportation in San Francisco is often seen as a last resort. In foreign countries everyone rides the public transportation, so there is public demand for quality. Our transportation situation results in the economic classes most able to effect political power uncaring about the infrastructural rot that is occurring since they can afford to avoid it and it's not a better, more predictable offering than just driving yourself.
- hedora 4y ago
  All the BART stations have public restrooms, but they closed them after 9/11 for "security" reasons. It might finally be time to consider reopening them.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    They did refurb and reopen a public rest room at the Powell Street muni/bart station in February at enormous expense https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/02/02/bart-reopens-bathroom-shuttered-for-20-years-bringing-much-needed-rider-relief/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/02/02/bart-reopens-bathroom... They are now used extensively by homeless for a variety of activities.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

LA to SF is not a "dense metro area". It's inter-city.

blamazon 4y ago
I think dumpsterlid is proposing to focus on commuter-dense-metro systems rather than inter-city.
- soheil 4y ago
  I'm not sure at all if that's what's being proposed. I think both are being advocated and that's why that makes no sense since as the OP suggested there are vast voids in between dense metros in the US.

soheil 4y ago

It's not clear if you're saying mass transit within the metros or also to other metros. It sounds like you're trying to imply the later by a way of using the former as a reason. The distances in the US between major population centers are vast, far more than what the average person from other regions of the world would likely imagine them to be.

dumpsterlid 4y ago
I am so bored of people repeating the "but... trains will never work for rancher joe out in North Dakota! The US is too big for mass transit and trains". Yes there are very empty places in the US, turns out though that the vast majority of people don't live in those places. The dense places in the US are dense and massive like anywhere else in the world, and if suburban sprawl makes them somewhat more spread out that is just pointing out how bad the status quo is with city planning/mass transit. Also.. ok so the distance between two cities is vast... a highspeed train is far more efficient at transporting people (at absurdly higher volumes) over a distance than aircraft are. If it is a popular route between cities I dont see how distance negates this inherent advantage. Yes, if we we talking hugeeee distances that means a massive infrastructure investment but there would still be a major advantage in the end?