8 ms·

The concept of "being mode" laid out here bears a resemblance to the Jewish Sabbath ("shabbat" in Hebrew) observance from dusk on Friday to dusk on Saturday nig

The concept of "being mode" laid out here bears a resemblance to the Jewish Sabbath ("shabbat" in Hebrew) observance from dusk on Friday to dusk on Saturday night. As I understand it, one tradition of exegesis holds that most of the restrictions on activities during the Sabbath can be understood as restrictions on acting purposively to modify the natural world, engage in commerce, etc. (later rabbinical elaboration proscribed even thinking of such activities to maintain a restive frame of mind). The paradigm of such work activities in the Hebrew bible was the construction of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shabbats-work-prohibition/ https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shabbats-work-prohi...

reidjs 4y ago
As a Jew, I'm a fan of Shabbat, but it bothers me when some Jews take this to absurdity. I read an article about elevators in certain buildings running all day without button presses because pressing the button is considered labor, or leaving their stove on all day to avoid turning the knob. These violate the spirit of the law by following the letter of the law.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Some of the “workarounds” strike me as “okay, so you just don’t want to do it; why not just admit that?” https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...
  - WJW 4y ago
    Not Jewish myself but married to an Israeli; it was explained to me like this: - There are rules, passed on to humanity from God. - God is perfect. - Therefore if you find a loophole in the rules you are not outsmarting God or anything like that, God is Perfect and cannot be outsmarted by mere mortals. - Therefore if you find such a loophole, you are not committing some form of heresy as most Christians would see it. Rather, you are extra virtuous because you found the loopholes that God put there as "easter eggs" for those of His followers that were attentive and clever enough to spot them. - Repeat this for several millennia and you get the New York fishing line shenanigans. I'm not sure I agree with some of the axioms, but I must admit that if you accept the first few points then "New York fishing line" follows pretty much linearly from those. I also quite like the idea that mortals cannot "outsmart" a deity by finding loopholes, because the idea a human could outsmart God always seemed like the very height of hubris to me. Then again, I am a (drunk) atheist so my opinions about gods are probably not too reliable. :)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      Why not just go with "God is perfect, but humans aren't, so maybe we just misunderstood the laws?"
      - old_hat 4y ago
        He knew what we'd understand and how we'd interpret these laws when he wrote it that way and left the wording exactly like this anyway. If he really didn't want people having Eruvs in their cities, he'd have defined walls and houses better. All knowing by necessity means knowing about the loopholes we'd exploit, or he's not all knowing.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Yes well, by that argument anything we choose to do at all must be part of God's plan and hence Good™.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        fardo 4y ago
        It’s more like a tie-breaker for religious rules disputes favoring personal and societal freedom: something like “if you don’t have a clear example indicating how something’s bad, it’s probably Good Enough™ “
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - garrickvanburen 4y ago
      The fishing line is one of my favorite things in the world.
    - deleted 4y ago
  - filoleg 4y ago
    I know that most people (including me) generally view it as silly loopholes, but I recently read a perspective on this that sorta makes sense in my head. Basically, if you believe that god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then surely he is aware of those loopholes. Which might indicate that he left them in purposefully, so that people could use them. While it seems shaky, it follows certain logic there that makes some sense to me as a non-religious person.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- CSSer 4y ago
  Before I was born, my mother was a nanny. A big part of her job for one of the families she worked for was stuff like this. If you ask her about it she'll talk about it briefly before going on to describe how good the bread was in epic detail.
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  As a Gentile, I always find these things really funny. Just reading through the Judaism Stack Exchange and coming across fiery, genuinely intelligent debates about whether or not you need to install a microfilter in your tap for the (apparently not kosher) micro-crustaceans that live in metropolitan water supplies is always a bit of fun.
- easton 4y ago
  The oven at my house has a sabbath mode where you can preschedule it to turn on to a certain temperature and turn off after several hours. I hadn’t ever heard of the elevators or other sabbath devices before that.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- j4jj 4y ago
  (Without commenting on religion in the modern day,) this was a very common theme throughout early Christianity. Much of Jesus’ ministry involved condemning the religious leaders of the time for focusing on minutiae of the law, particularly Sabbath law. Matthew 23:1–7 — “Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: ‘The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.’” Matthew 23:23–24 — “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin. But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” [Referring to a practice of the time: pious Jews would strain their drinks to avoid accidentally swallowing bugs, which are unclean. In focusing on such small things, and serving as the “ideal” example for others to follow, Jesus accuses them of violating the law in a much more significant way, figuratively swallowing a much bigger unclean animal.] Luke 14:1–6 — “One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, ‘Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?’ But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way. “Then he asked them, ‘If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?’ And they had nothing to say.” Mark 2:23–28 — “One Sabbath Jesus was passing through the grainfields, and His disciples began to pick the heads of grain as they walked along. So the Pharisees said to Him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?’ “Jesus replied, ‘Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? During the high priesthood of Abiathar, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which was lawful only for the priests. And he gave some to his companions as well.’ “Then Jesus declared, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.’” Mark 3:1–6 — “Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, ‘Stand up in front of everyone.’ “Then Jesus asked them, ‘Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?’ But they remained silent. “He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, ‘Stretch out your hand.’ He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.”
haskell_melody 4y ago
This brings to mind Compass Rose's piece Shabbat Hard or Go Home. http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/sabbath-hard-and-go-home/ http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/sabbath-hard-and-go-home/
bwestergard 4y ago
Whoops, autocorrect substituted "restive" where I of course meant "restful"!

reidjs 4y ago

As a Jew, I'm a fan of Shabbat, but it bothers me when some Jews take this to absurdity. I read an article about elevators in certain buildings running all day without button presses because pressing the button is considered labor, or leaving their stove on all day to avoid turning the knob. These violate the spirit of the law by following the letter of the law.

sokoloff 4y ago
Some of the “workarounds” strike me as “okay, so you just don’t want to do it; why not just admit that?” https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-encircles-manhattan-protecting-sanctity-of-sabbath https://www.npr.org/2019/05/13/721551785/a-fishing-line-enci...
- WJW 4y ago
  Not Jewish myself but married to an Israeli; it was explained to me like this: - There are rules, passed on to humanity from God. - God is perfect. - Therefore if you find a loophole in the rules you are not outsmarting God or anything like that, God is Perfect and cannot be outsmarted by mere mortals. - Therefore if you find such a loophole, you are not committing some form of heresy as most Christians would see it. Rather, you are extra virtuous because you found the loopholes that God put there as "easter eggs" for those of His followers that were attentive and clever enough to spot them. - Repeat this for several millennia and you get the New York fishing line shenanigans. I'm not sure I agree with some of the axioms, but I must admit that if you accept the first few points then "New York fishing line" follows pretty much linearly from those. I also quite like the idea that mortals cannot "outsmart" a deity by finding loopholes, because the idea a human could outsmart God always seemed like the very height of hubris to me. Then again, I am a (drunk) atheist so my opinions about gods are probably not too reliable. :)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Why not just go with "God is perfect, but humans aren't, so maybe we just misunderstood the laws?"
    - old_hat 4y ago
      He knew what we'd understand and how we'd interpret these laws when he wrote it that way and left the wording exactly like this anyway. If he really didn't want people having Eruvs in their cities, he'd have defined walls and houses better. All knowing by necessity means knowing about the loopholes we'd exploit, or he's not all knowing.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        Yes well, by that argument anything we choose to do at all must be part of God's plan and hence Good™.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        fardo 4y ago
        It’s more like a tie-breaker for religious rules disputes favoring personal and societal freedom: something like “if you don’t have a clear example indicating how something’s bad, it’s probably Good Enough™ “
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - garrickvanburen 4y ago
    The fishing line is one of my favorite things in the world.
  - deleted 4y ago
- filoleg 4y ago
  I know that most people (including me) generally view it as silly loopholes, but I recently read a perspective on this that sorta makes sense in my head. Basically, if you believe that god is omnipotent and omnipresent, then surely he is aware of those loopholes. Which might indicate that he left them in purposefully, so that people could use them. While it seems shaky, it follows certain logic there that makes some sense to me as a non-religious person.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
CSSer 4y ago
Before I was born, my mother was a nanny. A big part of her job for one of the families she worked for was stuff like this. If you ask her about it she'll talk about it briefly before going on to describe how good the bread was in epic detail.
AussieWog93 4y ago
As a Gentile, I always find these things really funny. Just reading through the Judaism Stack Exchange and coming across fiery, genuinely intelligent debates about whether or not you need to install a microfilter in your tap for the (apparently not kosher) micro-crustaceans that live in metropolitan water supplies is always a bit of fun.
easton 4y ago
The oven at my house has a sabbath mode where you can preschedule it to turn on to a certain temperature and turn off after several hours. I hadn’t ever heard of the elevators or other sabbath devices before that.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
j4jj 4y ago
(Without commenting on religion in the modern day,) this was a very common theme throughout early Christianity. Much of Jesus’ ministry involved condemning the religious leaders of the time for focusing on minutiae of the law, particularly Sabbath law. Matthew 23:1–7 — “Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: ‘The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.’” Matthew 23:23–24 — “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You pay tithes of mint, dill, and cumin. But you have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” [Referring to a practice of the time: pious Jews would strain their drinks to avoid accidentally swallowing bugs, which are unclean. In focusing on such small things, and serving as the “ideal” example for others to follow, Jesus accuses them of violating the law in a much more significant way, figuratively swallowing a much bigger unclean animal.] Luke 14:1–6 — “One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. There in front of him was a man suffering from abnormal swelling of his body. Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, ‘Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?’ But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him on his way. “Then he asked them, ‘If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?’ And they had nothing to say.” Mark 2:23–28 — “One Sabbath Jesus was passing through the grainfields, and His disciples began to pick the heads of grain as they walked along. So the Pharisees said to Him, ‘Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?’ “Jesus replied, ‘Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? During the high priesthood of Abiathar, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which was lawful only for the priests. And he gave some to his companions as well.’ “Then Jesus declared, ‘The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.’” Mark 3:1–6 — “Another time Jesus went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, ‘Stand up in front of everyone.’ “Then Jesus asked them, ‘Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?’ But they remained silent. “He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, ‘Stretch out your hand.’ He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.”

haskell_melody 4y ago

This brings to mind Compass Rose's piece Shabbat Hard or Go Home. http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/sabbath-hard-and-go-home/ http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/sabbath-hard-and-go-home/

bwestergard 4y ago

Whoops, autocorrect substituted "restive" where I of course meant "restful"!