6 ms·

I'm sorry to say that you are just plain wrong. Alcohol "in any amount" is not at all a poison, any more than formaldehyde (present in, for example, apples) is.

I'm sorry to say that you are just plain wrong. Alcohol "in any amount" is not at all a poison, any more than formaldehyde (present in, for example, apples) is. At normal amounts (such as social drinking, and an occasional drink at home, or a regular glass of wine at dinner) it has never been strongly associated with increased cancer risk - in fact some studies show the the opposite. The reason alcohol shows up on this particular list is because alcohol abuse is a surefire way to get liver cancer, and if one is abusing alcohol they are often doing other things in their life that are unhealthy and may lead to other cancers. It is simply an easy flag to tease out of health data - more a signpost than anything else.

zelphirkalt 4y ago
I can remember a HN post not so long ago, linking a study, in which the result was alcohol in any amount being unhealthy. Now I don't know, if that includes carcinogenic, but you might want to look that up, before caps locking that "never". People associate all kinds of things with all kinds of other things. It seems highly unlikely, that "normal" (what is normal?) amounts have never been even associated with cancer risk.
animal_spirits 4y ago
Here is a study suggesting the opposite to your claim: Light alcohol drinking and cancer: a meta-analysis Abstract Background: There is convincing evidence that alcohol consumption increases the risk of cancer of the colorectum, breast, larynx, liver, esophagus, oral cavity and pharynx. Most of the data derive from studies that focused on the effect of moderate/high alcohol intakes, while little is known about light alcohol drinking (up to 1 drink/day). Patients and methods: We evaluated the association between light drinking and cancer of the colorectum, breast, larynx, liver, esophagus, oral cavity and pharynx, through a meta-analytic approach. We searched epidemiological studies using PubMed, ISI Web of Science and EMBASE, published before December 2010. Results: We included 222 articles comprising ∼92 000 light drinkers and 60 000 non-drinkers with cancer. Light drinking was associated with the risk of oropharyngeal cancer [relative risk, RR = 1.17; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.06-1.29], esophageal squamous cell carcinoma (SCC) (RR = 1.30; 95% CI 1.09-1.56) and female breast cancer (RR = 1.05; 95% CI 1.02-1.08). We estimated that ∼5000 deaths from oropharyngeal cancer, 24 000 from esophageal SCC and 5000 from breast cancer were attributable to light drinking in 2004 worldwide. No association was found for colorectum, liver and larynx tumors. Conclusions: Light drinking increases the risk of cancer of oral cavity and pharynx, esophagus and female breast. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22910838/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22910838/
- philote 4y ago
  Could it be that people who don't drink alcohol also largely don't smoke? Was that controlled for in this study?
  - dwringer 4y ago
    I noted that it simply defines "light drinker" as <= 1 drink per day. It's not clear to me from reading the study how someone who drinks once every two or three days, or once a week, would be classified. The authors note some of the studies they incorporated in their results considered occasional drinking as "non-drinker" while others did not, so it seems that it was not consistent. However, it seems that in some cases the "non-drinker" category means people who completely abstain from alcohol. Presumably you're right, they would be less likely to smoke, and I would imagine also possibly more health conscious in other ways. The authors mention that a different analysis of 15 studies of alcohol use among never-smokers was similar to their own findings, but also caution that tobacco could indeed be having an influence on their results (or even a possible synergistic effect with alcohol).
- weberer 4y ago
  So a significant amount, but most people would say that's an acceptable risk to continue their lifestyle. For comparison, living in an urban environment has a RR of 1.20 to 1.40 for lung cancer. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3703988 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3703988
  - novok 4y ago
    That data is looking over a 1985-1990 / 1950-1990 time period. I wonder what the numbers are now with modern emissions improvements 30 years later, which are pretty big now! And with electric car & electric heat pump transitions, how much better will it get on top of that going forward? Also urban people tend to be wealthier, and also live longer.
- TaupeRanger 4y ago
  The reply to this study from S-K Myung points out its flaws: https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)35822-3/fulltext https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)35822.... Further, as with all epidemiological studies on diet, there are plenty of studies showing the exact opposite (a protective effect of alcohol): Alcohol lowers incidence of Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b32-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b32-ar... Alcohol lowers incidence of melanoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b3-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b3-arc... Light drinking reduces leukemia incidence by 10%: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b72-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b72-ar... Lower risk of thyroid cancer: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b20-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b20-ar... Lower risk of renal cell carcinoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b83-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b83-ar... Lower risk of triple negative breast cancer in alcohol drinkers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b44-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b44-ar...
jvanderbot 4y ago
There is no safe level of alcohol, the dose dependent risk is clear in studies sibling to this comment and as flagged by WHO, but I drink it anyway well informed of the very real risk to my health. Here's a top google result. https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20220125/no-amount-alcohol-safe-heart-whf https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20220125/no-amount-... And a second https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180824103018.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180824103018.h...
- standardUser 4y ago
  There's also no safe level of sun exposure. You can make lots of things sound absolutely terrifying if you're willing to abuse rhetoric.
  - robryk 4y ago
    I'm surprised by that. I would expect low enough exposure to cause abnormally low bone density and other calcium-related problems via "vitamin"[1] D deficiency. [1] It's not really a vitamin, because we do produce it internally (as opposed to having to ingest it in diet).
- TaupeRanger 4y ago
  On the contrary, alcohol consumption is associated with lower rates of many types of cancers, as noted in my other reply, and light/social drinking has never been associated with a reduction in overall mortality (what people actually care about).
  - jvanderbot 4y ago
    If you can get out of bed and have a social drink,you're probably pretty healthy to begin with. My understanding is that more modern research has unambiguously debunked the "light drinking" assertions. But this is not something I'd expect you to be convinced of, because I don't have hard evidence on hand. We will have to leave it there, and I will go refresh my understanding some other time, if you will too :)
eptcyka 4y ago
This is just wrong. 0.5 liters of beer is already detrimental to health. Drinking a glass of wine daily does not have, on balance, a health benefit. Alcohol is not as bad as smoking, but it is a vice at any amount consumed. You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. I am writing this after having a couple of beers every evening for the past two weeks, and a wine tasting trip too.
- krsw 4y ago
  >it is a vice at any amount consumed Sounds like you're evaluating it through a moralistic/religious lens as opposed to unbiased scientific one. Vice is such a preachy way to frame it. >You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. I don't buy from the giants. 90% of my consumption is locally produced beers from small businesses in my community.
- TaupeRanger 4y ago
  There is no evidence to support any of your claims.
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    There is this - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... There's no evidence of the contrary from your side - drinking alcohol is like any abusing any other organic solvent, I can't imagine why anyone would presume it'd be any healthier.
    - TaupeRanger 4y ago
      Sorry but the study you linked doesn't support any of the specific claims from your initial post, and my other reply earlier in the thread lists plenty of evidence for a protective effect of alcohol consumption for certain cancers.
- ksquarekumar 4y ago
  >You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. And you could do better by being a little less preachy and a bit more pedantic, anecdotes and opinions are not facts after all.
dynm 4y ago
Alcohol even at a level of 1 drink a day is certainly associated with many types of cancer: https://dynomight.net/img/alcohol-trial/issues.svg https://dynomight.net/img/alcohol-trial/issues.svg However, light to moderate drinking might reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes and these might be enough to outweigh the extra risks from cancer. (This is still an active subject of research.)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
caeril 4y ago
> alcohol abuse is a surefire way to get liver cancer ...and even then, in the vast majority of primary liver cancer cases, cirrhosis is already present, and typically precedes the cancer. So yes, it's very likely that the generally unhealthy lifestyle of the alcoholic is the primary contributor, here.
- bigfudge 4y ago
  That doesn’t make much sense if the cirrhosis is also caused by the alcohol.
pessimizer 4y ago
> The reason alcohol shows up on this particular list is because alcohol abuse is a surefire way to get liver cancer, It also very much causes esophageal cancer. I've known serious alcoholics who have died from both. It makes intuitive sense that constantly irritating your throat might cause cancer.
shard 4y ago
For acetaldehyde, you can take L-cysteine to combat its effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Reducing_toxic_effects_of_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Reducing_toxic_effect...

zelphirkalt 4y ago

I can remember a HN post not so long ago, linking a study, in which the result was alcohol in any amount being unhealthy. Now I don't know, if that includes carcinogenic, but you might want to look that up, before caps locking that "never". People associate all kinds of things with all kinds of other things. It seems highly unlikely, that "normal" (what is normal?) amounts have never been even associated with cancer risk.

animal_spirits 4y ago

Here is a study suggesting the opposite to your claim: Light alcohol drinking and cancer: a meta-analysis Abstract Background: There is convincing evidence that alcohol consumption increases the risk of cancer of the colorectum, breast, larynx, liver, esophagus, oral cavity and pharynx. Most of the data derive from studies that focused on the effect of moderate/high alcohol intakes, while little is known about light alcohol drinking (up to 1 drink/day). Patients and methods: We evaluated the association between light drinking and cancer of the colorectum, breast, larynx, liver, esophagus, oral cavity and pharynx, through a meta-analytic approach. We searched epidemiological studies using PubMed, ISI Web of Science and EMBASE, published before December 2010. Results: We included 222 articles comprising ∼92 000 light drinkers and 60 000 non-drinkers with cancer. Light drinking was associated with the risk of oropharyngeal cancer [relative risk, RR = 1.17; 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.06-1.29], esophageal squamous cell carcinoma (SCC) (RR = 1.30; 95% CI 1.09-1.56) and female breast cancer (RR = 1.05; 95% CI 1.02-1.08). We estimated that ∼5000 deaths from oropharyngeal cancer, 24 000 from esophageal SCC and 5000 from breast cancer were attributable to light drinking in 2004 worldwide. No association was found for colorectum, liver and larynx tumors. Conclusions: Light drinking increases the risk of cancer of oral cavity and pharynx, esophagus and female breast. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22910838/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22910838/

philote 4y ago
Could it be that people who don't drink alcohol also largely don't smoke? Was that controlled for in this study?
- dwringer 4y ago
  I noted that it simply defines "light drinker" as <= 1 drink per day. It's not clear to me from reading the study how someone who drinks once every two or three days, or once a week, would be classified. The authors note some of the studies they incorporated in their results considered occasional drinking as "non-drinker" while others did not, so it seems that it was not consistent. However, it seems that in some cases the "non-drinker" category means people who completely abstain from alcohol. Presumably you're right, they would be less likely to smoke, and I would imagine also possibly more health conscious in other ways. The authors mention that a different analysis of 15 studies of alcohol use among never-smokers was similar to their own findings, but also caution that tobacco could indeed be having an influence on their results (or even a possible synergistic effect with alcohol).
weberer 4y ago
So a significant amount, but most people would say that's an acceptable risk to continue their lifestyle. For comparison, living in an urban environment has a RR of 1.20 to 1.40 for lung cancer. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3703988 https://www.jstor.org/stable/3703988
- novok 4y ago
  That data is looking over a 1985-1990 / 1950-1990 time period. I wonder what the numbers are now with modern emissions improvements 30 years later, which are pretty big now! And with electric car & electric heat pump transitions, how much better will it get on top of that going forward? Also urban people tend to be wealthier, and also live longer.
TaupeRanger 4y ago
The reply to this study from S-K Myung points out its flaws: https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)35822-3/fulltext https://www.annalsofoncology.org/article/S0923-7534(19)35822.... Further, as with all epidemiological studies on diet, there are plenty of studies showing the exact opposite (a protective effect of alcohol): Alcohol lowers incidence of Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b32-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b32-ar... Alcohol lowers incidence of melanoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b3-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b3-arc... Light drinking reduces leukemia incidence by 10%: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b72-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b72-ar... Lower risk of thyroid cancer: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b20-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b20-ar... Lower risk of renal cell carcinoma: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b83-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b83-ar... Lower risk of triple negative breast cancer in alcohol drinkers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b44-arcr-37-2-311 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4590626/#b44-ar...

jvanderbot 4y ago

There is no safe level of alcohol, the dose dependent risk is clear in studies sibling to this comment and as flagged by WHO, but I drink it anyway well informed of the very real risk to my health. Here's a top google result. https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20220125/no-amount-alcohol-safe-heart-whf https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20220125/no-amount-... And a second https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180824103018.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180824103018.h...

standardUser 4y ago
There's also no safe level of sun exposure. You can make lots of things sound absolutely terrifying if you're willing to abuse rhetoric.
- robryk 4y ago
  I'm surprised by that. I would expect low enough exposure to cause abnormally low bone density and other calcium-related problems via "vitamin"[1] D deficiency. [1] It's not really a vitamin, because we do produce it internally (as opposed to having to ingest it in diet).
TaupeRanger 4y ago
On the contrary, alcohol consumption is associated with lower rates of many types of cancers, as noted in my other reply, and light/social drinking has never been associated with a reduction in overall mortality (what people actually care about).
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  If you can get out of bed and have a social drink,you're probably pretty healthy to begin with. My understanding is that more modern research has unambiguously debunked the "light drinking" assertions. But this is not something I'd expect you to be convinced of, because I don't have hard evidence on hand. We will have to leave it there, and I will go refresh my understanding some other time, if you will too :)

eptcyka 4y ago

This is just wrong. 0.5 liters of beer is already detrimental to health. Drinking a glass of wine daily does not have, on balance, a health benefit. Alcohol is not as bad as smoking, but it is a vice at any amount consumed. You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. I am writing this after having a couple of beers every evening for the past two weeks, and a wine tasting trip too.

krsw 4y ago
>it is a vice at any amount consumed Sounds like you're evaluating it through a moralistic/religious lens as opposed to unbiased scientific one. Vice is such a preachy way to frame it. >You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. I don't buy from the giants. 90% of my consumption is locally produced beers from small businesses in my community.
TaupeRanger 4y ago
There is no evidence to support any of your claims.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  There is this - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... There's no evidence of the contrary from your side - drinking alcohol is like any abusing any other organic solvent, I can't imagine why anyone would presume it'd be any healthier.
  - TaupeRanger 4y ago
    Sorry but the study you linked doesn't support any of the specific claims from your initial post, and my other reply earlier in the thread lists plenty of evidence for a protective effect of alcohol consumption for certain cancers.
ksquarekumar 4y ago
>You do not need to defend an industry of billions for free. And you could do better by being a little less preachy and a bit more pedantic, anecdotes and opinions are not facts after all.

dynm 4y ago

Alcohol even at a level of 1 drink a day is certainly associated with many types of cancer: https://dynomight.net/img/alcohol-trial/issues.svg https://dynomight.net/img/alcohol-trial/issues.svg However, light to moderate drinking might reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes and these might be enough to outweigh the extra risks from cancer. (This is still an active subject of research.)

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

caeril 4y ago

> alcohol abuse is a surefire way to get liver cancer ...and even then, in the vast majority of primary liver cancer cases, cirrhosis is already present, and typically precedes the cancer. So yes, it's very likely that the generally unhealthy lifestyle of the alcoholic is the primary contributor, here.

bigfudge 4y ago
That doesn’t make much sense if the cirrhosis is also caused by the alcohol.

pessimizer 4y ago

> The reason alcohol shows up on this particular list is because alcohol abuse is a surefire way to get liver cancer, It also very much causes esophageal cancer. I've known serious alcoholics who have died from both. It makes intuitive sense that constantly irritating your throat might cause cancer.

shard 4y ago

For acetaldehyde, you can take L-cysteine to combat its effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Reducing_toxic_effects_of_alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cysteine#Reducing_toxic_effect...