5 ms·

Instead of Ted Nelson telling the world what everyone can learn from him, I would like to hear him talk about what he learned from the real world. Xanadu is pr

Instead of Ted Nelson telling the world what everyone can learn from him, I would like to hear him talk about what he learned from the real world. Xanadu is probably the biggest vaporware in the history of computing. Maybe some lessons learned about how he had all these “brilliant” ideas but never actually made something that actual people actually use. But that would require humility, introspection, and self-awareness so it is not likely to happen.

cryo 4y ago
On one side the Xanadu implementations over the decades are a complete failure. On the other side, imho some of the ideas will survive and one day make it into successful software projects. Good ideas aren't destroyed by poor excecution.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  Then again as Steve Jobs said: “ideas are worth nothing unless executed. They are just a multiplier. Execution is worth millions.”
  - cryo 4y ago
    In terms of quickly making money this is true. But here I'd like to think about likely world changing tech. As long as the (successful) execution comes one day, it doesn't matter if it happens 20 years ago or 10 years from now.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - Rochus 4y ago
    > ideas are worth nothing unless executed. Maybe if you only have a business focus. He was apparently not interested in fundamental research.
    - analog31 4y ago
      Even in research you have to "do" something with an idea, at least hang your hat on a specific prediction, or carry out the experiment.
      - Rochus 4y ago
        There is quite a difference between fundamental and applied research.
        analog31 4y ago
        I've done both. Even in fundamental research, you have to "do" something in order to make an idea worth considering. Halley didn't just jot down that a comet might appear in 1758 [0]. He didn't just suggest that a comet could be used to test Newtonian mechanics. He had to work his computation from start to finish, find and fix the bugs, show convincingly how his result actually followed from the theory, etc. And computation was hard back then. Maybe 1758 wasn't the first answer he got. Likewise other theoretical and fundamental work. Note that this is aside from the question of who gets "credit." Fortune tellers take credit for predictions. This is about what it takes to do good work under most circumstances. [0] Wikipedia
      - runevault 4y ago
        Yes and no. You won't reap any benefits if you fail to create something useful with an idea, but if you were the first person to get the idea out in the world and other people made it useful, you still created value by helping inspire the other person to pursue what you did. Just probably won't get any monetary gain FROM that.
        analog31 4y ago
        At least in the business world, I think the value of getting ideas out is vastly overrated. Someone else has to choose among a flood of ideas, which one is worth pursuing. And they may have had the same idea themselves but kept it to themselves. I'm a bit adamant about this (and willing to eat the downvotes -- fair is fair). Every individual contributor (IC) has experienced credit for something they've worked on being given to a colleague or manager who comes in at the last minute and claims to have blurted out an idea at a meeting. I've gotten plenty of credit for ideas -- 20+ patents. What I'm proud of is the part of a patent called "reduction to practice," where you figure out the details that prove an idea to be workable, and typically result in additional claims. I've informally adopted a standard that an "idea" has the same requirements as a patent, specifically a study of background information and an explanation of how something can be reduced to practice. I'm super generous with credit, especially towards my junior colleagues. Ideas are a dime a dozen. And as a musician, I got over the difference between "doing" something, and making money, long ago.
  - samsquire 4y ago
    Mathematics, philosophy, theology and science began as ideas. Even if you aren't the person to develop your ideas, they still have value to civilization.
- Rochus 4y ago
  Transclusion is a very good idea from my point of view. I saw and used it in Ivar Jacobson's Objectory tool and eventually also implemented it in my CrossLine and other tools (see https://github.com/rochus-keller/CrossLine https://github.com/rochus-keller/CrossLine, https://github.com/rochus-keller/FlowLine2/ https://github.com/rochus-keller/FlowLine2/, etc.).
  - chillpenguin 4y ago
    Agreed! I also use it frequently in my wiki (I use TiddlyWiki).
anotheryou 4y ago
but we now have roam research e.g.
AlbertCory 4y ago
History is full of people who considered themselves geniuses. Some of them really were. Nelson got his ideas out there and other people used them in various ways, often without giving him credit. Bill Atkinson was one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquNpWdf9vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquNpWdf9vg) and he wasn't the first. at 1:35 in that video, Gary Kildall does give him credit, along with Doug Engelbart.
carapace 4y ago
I agree except for that last sentence. If you were to delete it the whole comment would be much better, IMO.
jonjacky 4y ago
...(Nelson) never actually made something that actual people actually use. Actually, he did. He wrote and self-published the big book Computer Lib/Dream Machines, which was ubiquitous and influential in the 1970s. More about that book and its influence here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176769
thirdtrigger 4y ago
Always when Ted Nelson shows up, this point is made one way or the other. I even once heard Vint Cerf make these points at a conference. 1. Xanadu being vaporware 2. His ego What I really don't get is what Ted Nelson does to trigger this anger in people. E.g., his book computer lib/dream machines inspired so many, and I find him super self-aware. His appearance in Werner Herzog’s movie about the internet was (IMHO) so refreshing. I love Ted's work, and it's a huge inspiration to me in my daily work. This video just adds to that.

cryo 4y ago

On one side the Xanadu implementations over the decades are a complete failure. On the other side, imho some of the ideas will survive and one day make it into successful software projects. Good ideas aren't destroyed by poor excecution.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
Then again as Steve Jobs said: “ideas are worth nothing unless executed. They are just a multiplier. Execution is worth millions.”
- cryo 4y ago
  In terms of quickly making money this is true. But here I'd like to think about likely world changing tech. As long as the (successful) execution comes one day, it doesn't matter if it happens 20 years ago or 10 years from now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Rochus 4y ago
  > ideas are worth nothing unless executed. Maybe if you only have a business focus. He was apparently not interested in fundamental research.
  - analog31 4y ago
    Even in research you have to "do" something with an idea, at least hang your hat on a specific prediction, or carry out the experiment.
    - Rochus 4y ago
      There is quite a difference between fundamental and applied research.
      - analog31 4y ago
        I've done both. Even in fundamental research, you have to "do" something in order to make an idea worth considering. Halley didn't just jot down that a comet might appear in 1758 [0]. He didn't just suggest that a comet could be used to test Newtonian mechanics. He had to work his computation from start to finish, find and fix the bugs, show convincingly how his result actually followed from the theory, etc. And computation was hard back then. Maybe 1758 wasn't the first answer he got. Likewise other theoretical and fundamental work. Note that this is aside from the question of who gets "credit." Fortune tellers take credit for predictions. This is about what it takes to do good work under most circumstances. [0] Wikipedia
    - runevault 4y ago
      Yes and no. You won't reap any benefits if you fail to create something useful with an idea, but if you were the first person to get the idea out in the world and other people made it useful, you still created value by helping inspire the other person to pursue what you did. Just probably won't get any monetary gain FROM that.
      - analog31 4y ago
        At least in the business world, I think the value of getting ideas out is vastly overrated. Someone else has to choose among a flood of ideas, which one is worth pursuing. And they may have had the same idea themselves but kept it to themselves. I'm a bit adamant about this (and willing to eat the downvotes -- fair is fair). Every individual contributor (IC) has experienced credit for something they've worked on being given to a colleague or manager who comes in at the last minute and claims to have blurted out an idea at a meeting. I've gotten plenty of credit for ideas -- 20+ patents. What I'm proud of is the part of a patent called "reduction to practice," where you figure out the details that prove an idea to be workable, and typically result in additional claims. I've informally adopted a standard that an "idea" has the same requirements as a patent, specifically a study of background information and an explanation of how something can be reduced to practice. I'm super generous with credit, especially towards my junior colleagues. Ideas are a dime a dozen. And as a musician, I got over the difference between "doing" something, and making money, long ago.
- samsquire 4y ago
  Mathematics, philosophy, theology and science began as ideas. Even if you aren't the person to develop your ideas, they still have value to civilization.
Rochus 4y ago
Transclusion is a very good idea from my point of view. I saw and used it in Ivar Jacobson's Objectory tool and eventually also implemented it in my CrossLine and other tools (see https://github.com/rochus-keller/CrossLine https://github.com/rochus-keller/CrossLine, https://github.com/rochus-keller/FlowLine2/ https://github.com/rochus-keller/FlowLine2/, etc.).
- chillpenguin 4y ago
  Agreed! I also use it frequently in my wiki (I use TiddlyWiki).

anotheryou 4y ago

but we now have roam research e.g.

AlbertCory 4y ago

History is full of people who considered themselves geniuses. Some of them really were. Nelson got his ideas out there and other people used them in various ways, often without giving him credit. Bill Atkinson was one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquNpWdf9vg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FquNpWdf9vg) and he wasn't the first. at 1:35 in that video, Gary Kildall does give him credit, along with Doug Engelbart.

carapace 4y ago

I agree except for that last sentence. If you were to delete it the whole comment would be much better, IMO.

jonjacky 4y ago

...(Nelson) never actually made something that actual people actually use. Actually, he did. He wrote and self-published the big book Computer Lib/Dream Machines, which was ubiquitous and influential in the 1970s. More about that book and its influence here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176769 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22176769

thirdtrigger 4y ago

Always when Ted Nelson shows up, this point is made one way or the other. I even once heard Vint Cerf make these points at a conference. 1. Xanadu being vaporware 2. His ego What I really don't get is what Ted Nelson does to trigger this anger in people. E.g., his book computer lib/dream machines inspired so many, and I find him super self-aware. His appearance in Werner Herzog’s movie about the internet was (IMHO) so refreshing. I love Ted's work, and it's a huge inspiration to me in my daily work. This video just adds to that.