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Do we need the constant npm/node_modules hyperbole? HN has an obsession with dogging the ecosystem and it's usually from those who have never shipped a large JS

Do we need the constant npm/node_modules hyperbole? HN has an obsession with dogging the ecosystem and it's usually from those who have never shipped a large JS project, let alone understand how or why things are the way they are.

cxr 4y ago
> it's usually from those who have never shipped a large JS project What do you have to say to those who have? I have worked in large JS codebases that predate NodeJS's cannibalization of JS, and it's precisely why I deride the former—because I know from firsthand experience that it doesn't have to be the way that it is, and there are tons of people (too many) operating on the misconception that JS=Node (and inducing others to make the same mistake). Even this article from The Verge contributes misdirected scorn by linking, of all things, to... Maciej Cegłowski's talk about "The Website Obesity Crisis" (wat). It would be one thing if the person you were replying to had shown up to write "lol leftpad good luck", but that's not what's going on. It's the opposite of that.
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  You completely omit (conveniently) how browsers have evolved over the past decade, how business requirements have changed (and become more complex) and how npm itself (you could argue the entire JS ecosystem, along with language changes) has changed. Cool, things use to be easier when you were working pre-Node dominance but you weren't shipping the complex interaction patterns that have resulted in the ecosystem we have today. So frustrating to have conversations with those who have no perspective or context on the why and rest on their laurels of old when "things were easier". Good grief.
  - cxr 4y ago
    > You completely omit (conveniently) how browsers have evolved over the past decade Why would I talk about that? The article is about the James Webb Space Telescope, not the James Webb Browser. Aside from that, this is rooted at the mention of "node_modules", which is a NodeJS-ism; browsers don't even run NodeJS modules (unless you recompile them to standard JS), so browsers are doubly irrelevant... > and how npm itself (you could argue the entire JS ecosystem, along with language changes) has changed I didn't omit that. I was very explicit about NodeJS cannibalizing JS. > So frustrating to have conversations with those who have no perspective or context on the why and rest on their laurels of old when "things were easier". You seem to have me confused with someone else. (Talk about "context"!) Where does that quote from? It looks like you made it up.
  - albertopv 4y ago
    In 2008 I adapted an ecommerce web app working only in IE6 to work on Firefox, it used plain XMLHttpRequest with XML api, no json. Parsing XML was a pain. In 2012 I wrote a Bill Of Material web editor for fashion products, 8k lines of pure javascript, embedded in a monstrous legacy web application, still running. Or a datagrid that had to work with IE10 loading 10k rows with client side filtering because the client requested so. Not enormous projects, but things have been complex for a long time, now they are often overengineered, I wouldn't touch FE dev env with a ten meter long pole. Things were much easier with JSF, especially for pure b2b stuff.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
Exactly right. The anti npm crowd also forgets that many developers don't choose their dependencies. I work at BigCo and we have a React Native app. I can either: 1. Use npm. 2. Not feed my family. I guess I'll use npm.
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  Or accept another job at not BigCo and work with a leaner tech stack. False dichotomy between 1. and 2..
  - halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
    If you're a frontend dev, explain where to go for a "leaner stack"? How many Reason jobs are there? How many Scala.js? Are you for real?
- bhedgeoser 4y ago
  What are you trying to say? Yes NPM is bad. Yes it could've been better. Yes it sucks you have to use it.
- thfuran 4y ago
  So you're saying that the only good thing about npm is that you don't get fired for using it, but people who don't like it are wrong?

cxr 4y ago

> it's usually from those who have never shipped a large JS project What do you have to say to those who have? I have worked in large JS codebases that predate NodeJS's cannibalization of JS, and it's precisely why I deride the former—because I know from firsthand experience that it doesn't have to be the way that it is, and there are tons of people (too many) operating on the misconception that JS=Node (and inducing others to make the same mistake). Even this article from The Verge contributes misdirected scorn by linking, of all things, to... Maciej Cegłowski's talk about "The Website Obesity Crisis" (wat). It would be one thing if the person you were replying to had shown up to write "lol leftpad good luck", but that's not what's going on. It's the opposite of that.

halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
You completely omit (conveniently) how browsers have evolved over the past decade, how business requirements have changed (and become more complex) and how npm itself (you could argue the entire JS ecosystem, along with language changes) has changed. Cool, things use to be easier when you were working pre-Node dominance but you weren't shipping the complex interaction patterns that have resulted in the ecosystem we have today. So frustrating to have conversations with those who have no perspective or context on the why and rest on their laurels of old when "things were easier". Good grief.
- cxr 4y ago
  > You completely omit (conveniently) how browsers have evolved over the past decade Why would I talk about that? The article is about the James Webb Space Telescope, not the James Webb Browser. Aside from that, this is rooted at the mention of "node_modules", which is a NodeJS-ism; browsers don't even run NodeJS modules (unless you recompile them to standard JS), so browsers are doubly irrelevant... > and how npm itself (you could argue the entire JS ecosystem, along with language changes) has changed I didn't omit that. I was very explicit about NodeJS cannibalizing JS. > So frustrating to have conversations with those who have no perspective or context on the why and rest on their laurels of old when "things were easier". You seem to have me confused with someone else. (Talk about "context"!) Where does that quote from? It looks like you made it up.
- albertopv 4y ago
  In 2008 I adapted an ecommerce web app working only in IE6 to work on Firefox, it used plain XMLHttpRequest with XML api, no json. Parsing XML was a pain. In 2012 I wrote a Bill Of Material web editor for fashion products, 8k lines of pure javascript, embedded in a monstrous legacy web application, still running. Or a datagrid that had to work with IE10 loading 10k rows with client side filtering because the client requested so. Not enormous projects, but things have been complex for a long time, now they are often overengineered, I wouldn't touch FE dev env with a ten meter long pole. Things were much easier with JSF, especially for pure b2b stuff.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

Exactly right. The anti npm crowd also forgets that many developers don't choose their dependencies. I work at BigCo and we have a React Native app. I can either: 1. Use npm. 2. Not feed my family. I guess I'll use npm.

zelphirkalt 4y ago
Or accept another job at not BigCo and work with a leaner tech stack. False dichotomy between 1. and 2..
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  If you're a frontend dev, explain where to go for a "leaner stack"? How many Reason jobs are there? How many Scala.js? Are you for real?
bhedgeoser 4y ago
What are you trying to say? Yes NPM is bad. Yes it could've been better. Yes it sucks you have to use it.
thfuran 4y ago
So you're saying that the only good thing about npm is that you don't get fired for using it, but people who don't like it are wrong?