5 ms·

A few years back I worked for a large company that had, for various reasons, dependencies on software products produced by a lot of different suppliers. We want

A few years back I worked for a large company that had, for various reasons, dependencies on software products produced by a lot of different suppliers. We wanted to do a "sanity check" on how good these companies were so we could identify where the risks were. So I came up with a list of pretty basic questions - including what tools they used for source control. During this process I encountered people who had somewhat eccentric views about source code control - including arguing pretty passionately against using it. I was somewhat taken aback by this.... So I think asking about how companies do source code control is pretty reasonable - 95% of the time they are probably sensible, but they might uncover somewhere where they have unusual views about how to do things. Edit: I've encountered some people with really odd views about software development, such as one chap who believed that testing caused bugs...

jacquesm 4y ago
I've encountered a company without version control in recent times. Interesting aside: they produced very high quality software, so it's not even a cut-and-dried thing on that front. Personally, I wouldn't get through the day without it but apparently there are people disciplined enough to manage. But I suspect they are quite rare.
- plugin-baby 4y ago
  Where was the code?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Embedded device. Or do you mean storage? Tar files... going to back a decade+.
    - xorcist 4y ago
      Well, that is version control, isn't it? Add some basic tooling about that collection of tar balls and you're half way on re-implementing git.
    - OJFord 4y ago
      I think GP meant the source, like where/how was it stored?
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Already added that in edit.
        OJFord 4y ago
        Yeah just saw that, it was just 'embedded device' when I replied.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        You must have hit that comment seconds after it was first posted because that edit was done right after I first wrote it. Sharp timing :)
    - arethuza 4y ago
      Or in the case of one of the people I spoke to zip files, lots and lots of zip files.
- calvinmorrison 4y ago
  It is cut and dry. You need to be effective at collaborating with other people. I use git for everything even my own projects. How can you collaborate copying code around effectively?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Well, version control wasn't always a thing and people got by just the same. So I can see how it could be done but the key is 'effectively' and the ability to quickly review and accord changes to a larger code base as well as to compare versions in a divide-and-conquer manner to see where a particular issue got introduced is priceless. So it would be a bit like trying to drive with the handbrake on, you can do it but it isn't an advantage.
    - calvinmorrison 4y ago
      Having Googled it, CVS came out in 1990, and there wer other pre cursor systems. So, pre-widespread internet and collaboration, yes, maybe people had some limited control systems that worked, but I don't think it even comes close.
      - drdec 4y ago
        RCS was available in 1982 and SCCS was available in 1972.
      - wrycoder 4y ago
        CVS came out in 1986, and it is built on top of RCS, which dates to 1983.[0] RCS was an alternative to SCCS, which was written for the IBM System/370 in 1972.[1][2] All of these are very workable for software development by a co-located group of engineers. They are full-featured, not "limited". CVS is currently used by OpenBSD.[3] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Code_Control_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Code_Control_System [3] https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html
- politician 4y ago
  Were you able to inquire about their approach to backups in general?
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Tapes.
    - politician 4y ago
      Gotcha. Yeah, it makes sense from their perspective to not use version control if they're journalling everything already. I can imagine the thought is what's the point of the extra process. I don't feel that way personally, but I see the point.
- ozim 4y ago
  If they depend on people being disciplined and not making mistakes - I would not like to join such a company as a newbie. They have to have tough time hiring anyone or retaining newbies, even if it is about experienced people.
- wildpeaks 4y ago
  Relying solely on developer discipline is a risky bet, there is always a chance the developer will forget something or external events will cause them to be distracted just long enough to skip an important part. You can especially see it now with long COVID reducing mental capacities short or long term: processes that were designed to require only low mental load (thanks to automation and tools) didn't break and business continued to operate smoothly. Accessibility is good for business.

jacquesm 4y ago

I've encountered a company without version control in recent times. Interesting aside: they produced very high quality software, so it's not even a cut-and-dried thing on that front. Personally, I wouldn't get through the day without it but apparently there are people disciplined enough to manage. But I suspect they are quite rare.

plugin-baby 4y ago
Where was the code?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Embedded device. Or do you mean storage? Tar files... going to back a decade+.
  - xorcist 4y ago
    Well, that is version control, isn't it? Add some basic tooling about that collection of tar balls and you're half way on re-implementing git.
  - OJFord 4y ago
    I think GP meant the source, like where/how was it stored?
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Already added that in edit.
      - OJFord 4y ago
        Yeah just saw that, it was just 'embedded device' when I replied.
        jacquesm 4y ago
        You must have hit that comment seconds after it was first posted because that edit was done right after I first wrote it. Sharp timing :)
  - arethuza 4y ago
    Or in the case of one of the people I spoke to zip files, lots and lots of zip files.
calvinmorrison 4y ago
It is cut and dry. You need to be effective at collaborating with other people. I use git for everything even my own projects. How can you collaborate copying code around effectively?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Well, version control wasn't always a thing and people got by just the same. So I can see how it could be done but the key is 'effectively' and the ability to quickly review and accord changes to a larger code base as well as to compare versions in a divide-and-conquer manner to see where a particular issue got introduced is priceless. So it would be a bit like trying to drive with the handbrake on, you can do it but it isn't an advantage.
  - calvinmorrison 4y ago
    Having Googled it, CVS came out in 1990, and there wer other pre cursor systems. So, pre-widespread internet and collaboration, yes, maybe people had some limited control systems that worked, but I don't think it even comes close.
    - drdec 4y ago
      RCS was available in 1982 and SCCS was available in 1972.
    - wrycoder 4y ago
      CVS came out in 1986, and it is built on top of RCS, which dates to 1983.[0] RCS was an alternative to SCCS, which was written for the IBM System/370 in 1972.[1][2] All of these are very workable for software development by a co-located group of engineers. They are full-featured, not "limited". CVS is currently used by OpenBSD.[3] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concurrent_Versions_System [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision_Control_System [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Code_Control_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_Code_Control_System [3] https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html https://www.openbsd.org/anoncvs.html
politician 4y ago
Were you able to inquire about their approach to backups in general?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Tapes.
  - politician 4y ago
    Gotcha. Yeah, it makes sense from their perspective to not use version control if they're journalling everything already. I can imagine the thought is what's the point of the extra process. I don't feel that way personally, but I see the point.
ozim 4y ago
If they depend on people being disciplined and not making mistakes - I would not like to join such a company as a newbie. They have to have tough time hiring anyone or retaining newbies, even if it is about experienced people.
wildpeaks 4y ago
Relying solely on developer discipline is a risky bet, there is always a chance the developer will forget something or external events will cause them to be distracted just long enough to skip an important part. You can especially see it now with long COVID reducing mental capacities short or long term: processes that were designed to require only low mental load (thanks to automation and tools) didn't break and business continued to operate smoothly. Accessibility is good for business.