7 ms·

Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because some

by Dan_- 4y ago

Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because something doesn’t kill you immediately does not mean it isn’t harmful.

ars 4y ago
Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.
- autoexec 4y ago
  Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...
  - ars 4y ago
    Here you go: https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-teflon-flakes-found-frying-pan/ https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-tefl... PTFE goes out unchanged from how it was when it went in. It's completely inert. It's even used in implants, so has plenty of long term studies: https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/uploads/2021/11/jarchow-safetyand-efficacyptfeimplants.pdf https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/upload... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ How many studies are you looking for?
    - kragen 4y ago
      I really appreciate you making the effort to debunk the witch-burners; have you thought about doing it in a less ephemeral medium? Your comment will probably be here for a decade or more but nobody will read it after this month.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        That said people here are engaged and interested in the topic and will remember. Whereas a blogpost may not get that traction. A Netflix movie maybe.
      - blix 4y ago
        If asking for scientific research to support claims is witch-burning, truly science literacy is in a sad state. And I'm not sure I would really consider a "Go Ask Alice" column as peer-reviewed research.
        kragen 4y ago
        But the claim in question is one of the best-known and most thoroughly established claims in all of toxicology. Asking for scientific research supporting the biocompatibility of PTFE is akin to asking for scientific research supporting biological evolution or the claim that people have landed on the moon: it's a sure sign that the person making the demand has a pre-existing flimsy pretext for rejecting literally all the research in the relevant field, which did indeed turn out to be the case; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517203.
        blix 4y ago
        If it's truly such a well established claim it should be trivial to find and link a study actually demonstrating its safety when ingesting small amounts over a large period of time. No such study was linked. Probably because longitudinal studies are extremely rare. It's not a rejection of all research to say that some questions remain unanswered. In fact, I'd say it is the foundation of good science to understand which claims are supported by evidence, and which claims are not.
        kragen 4y ago
        There are half a dozen studies per year, going back decades, assessing the safety of PTFE in implants. Many of them are longitudinal. Chemists routinely boil PTFE in acids such as hydrochloric and sulfuric for hours without degrading it even slightly; such degradation would contaminate their reactions. I bet you can't find a study demonstrating natural selection in the split-leaf philodendron, either, but that isn't a good reason to go around saying "some questions remain unanswered" about whether the split-leaf philodendron is an exception to the laws of evolution.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Just one. Not one of those links is a long term study on ingested PTFE coatings.
      - ars 4y ago
        And you think that ingesting PTFE is somehow worse than an actual PTFE implant? Why you insisting it must be a digestion study? Do you make such requirements for everything you interact with? Has someone done a study on using paper straws? Or plastic plates? Or metal spoons? Do you understand that when you eat PTFE it comes out exactly the same way it went in? Even powerful acids can't do anything to PTFE, what makes you think the body can do anything to it?
        autoexec 4y ago
        > And you think that ingesting PTFE is somehow worse than an actual PTFE implant? I think that it isn't even close to being equivalent. > Why you insisting it must be a digestion study You are the one who made the statement: "It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest." so prove it, or admit that this is your opinion and not backed by research. I'm not even asking for research comparing the effects of the ingestion of PTFE with every other "material that you could possibly ingest", just for any data, at all, on the long term effects of ingesting PTFE. It's my understanding that the toxicity of ingested PTFE is still an open question, that there is no consensus on the safety or dangers of Teflon in food, and no research into the effects of ingesting it over/after long periods of time (say > 20 years). If you have actual knowledge of advancements in the science I'd like to see what was found, but otherwise let's just acknowledge that there is still far too much work to be done before we can make meaningful claims about the safety of ingesting PTFE. At best, what we can say right now is that it won't instantly kill you, but the long term effects of ingesting PTFE on the body are unknown.
        ars 4y ago
        You can't have a long term study given that PTFE doesn't stay in the system, so there's nothing to study. Are you planning on feeding people PTFE every couple hours? > the long term effects of ingesting PTFE on the body are unknown. They are known. They are non-existent. You are arguing from bad faith and profound lack of knowledge of chemistry. To even hypothesize that PTFE can do anything, anything at all, to the body would require some new magical chemistry that doesn't exist. There is nothing in the body, nothing, that can affect the stability of the chemical bonds that make up PTFE - if you had even a tiny bit of scientific understanding you know that, and not embarrass yourself with these demands for studies.
- freemint 4y ago
  Even inert materials can do stuff, such as prevent other reactions or act catalytically or have physical impacts (collision which defold molecules, make certain things heavier by being enclosed or enclosing ... ). Furthermore PTFE is know to interact with Gallic Acid [1] somewhat. The body contains gallic acid [1] https://www.calpaclab.com/teflon-ptfe-compatibility/ https://www.calpaclab.com/teflon-ptfe-compatibility/
- acrobatsunfish 4y ago
  It will kill birds in your house though, be warned!
mensetmanusman 4y ago
Sugar does those things.

by Dan_- 4y ago

ars 4y ago

Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.

autoexec 4y ago
Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...
- ars 4y ago
  Here you go: https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-teflon-flakes-found-frying-pan/ https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-tefl... PTFE goes out unchanged from how it was when it went in. It's completely inert. It's even used in implants, so has plenty of long term studies: https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/uploads/2021/11/jarchow-safetyand-efficacyptfeimplants.pdf https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/upload... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ How many studies are you looking for?
  - kragen 4y ago
    I really appreciate you making the effort to debunk the witch-burners; have you thought about doing it in a less ephemeral medium? Your comment will probably be here for a decade or more but nobody will read it after this month.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      That said people here are engaged and interested in the topic and will remember. Whereas a blogpost may not get that traction. A Netflix movie maybe.
    - blix 4y ago
      If asking for scientific research to support claims is witch-burning, truly science literacy is in a sad state. And I'm not sure I would really consider a "Go Ask Alice" column as peer-reviewed research.
      - kragen 4y ago
        But the claim in question is one of the best-known and most thoroughly established claims in all of toxicology. Asking for scientific research supporting the biocompatibility of PTFE is akin to asking for scientific research supporting biological evolution or the claim that people have landed on the moon: it's a sure sign that the person making the demand has a pre-existing flimsy pretext for rejecting literally all the research in the relevant field, which did indeed turn out to be the case; see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517203 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32517203.
        blix 4y ago
        If it's truly such a well established claim it should be trivial to find and link a study actually demonstrating its safety when ingesting small amounts over a large period of time. No such study was linked. Probably because longitudinal studies are extremely rare. It's not a rejection of all research to say that some questions remain unanswered. In fact, I'd say it is the foundation of good science to understand which claims are supported by evidence, and which claims are not.
        kragen 4y ago
        There are half a dozen studies per year, going back decades, assessing the safety of PTFE in implants. Many of them are longitudinal. Chemists routinely boil PTFE in acids such as hydrochloric and sulfuric for hours without degrading it even slightly; such degradation would contaminate their reactions. I bet you can't find a study demonstrating natural selection in the split-leaf philodendron, either, but that isn't a good reason to go around saying "some questions remain unanswered" about whether the split-leaf philodendron is an exception to the laws of evolution.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Just one. Not one of those links is a long term study on ingested PTFE coatings.
    - ars 4y ago
      And you think that ingesting PTFE is somehow worse than an actual PTFE implant? Why you insisting it must be a digestion study? Do you make such requirements for everything you interact with? Has someone done a study on using paper straws? Or plastic plates? Or metal spoons? Do you understand that when you eat PTFE it comes out exactly the same way it went in? Even powerful acids can't do anything to PTFE, what makes you think the body can do anything to it?
      - autoexec 4y ago
        > And you think that ingesting PTFE is somehow worse than an actual PTFE implant? I think that it isn't even close to being equivalent. > Why you insisting it must be a digestion study You are the one who made the statement: "It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest." so prove it, or admit that this is your opinion and not backed by research. I'm not even asking for research comparing the effects of the ingestion of PTFE with every other "material that you could possibly ingest", just for any data, at all, on the long term effects of ingesting PTFE. It's my understanding that the toxicity of ingested PTFE is still an open question, that there is no consensus on the safety or dangers of Teflon in food, and no research into the effects of ingesting it over/after long periods of time (say > 20 years). If you have actual knowledge of advancements in the science I'd like to see what was found, but otherwise let's just acknowledge that there is still far too much work to be done before we can make meaningful claims about the safety of ingesting PTFE. At best, what we can say right now is that it won't instantly kill you, but the long term effects of ingesting PTFE on the body are unknown.
        ars 4y ago
        You can't have a long term study given that PTFE doesn't stay in the system, so there's nothing to study. Are you planning on feeding people PTFE every couple hours? > the long term effects of ingesting PTFE on the body are unknown. They are known. They are non-existent. You are arguing from bad faith and profound lack of knowledge of chemistry. To even hypothesize that PTFE can do anything, anything at all, to the body would require some new magical chemistry that doesn't exist. There is nothing in the body, nothing, that can affect the stability of the chemical bonds that make up PTFE - if you had even a tiny bit of scientific understanding you know that, and not embarrass yourself with these demands for studies.
freemint 4y ago
Even inert materials can do stuff, such as prevent other reactions or act catalytically or have physical impacts (collision which defold molecules, make certain things heavier by being enclosed or enclosing ... ). Furthermore PTFE is know to interact with Gallic Acid [1] somewhat. The body contains gallic acid [1] https://www.calpaclab.com/teflon-ptfe-compatibility/ https://www.calpaclab.com/teflon-ptfe-compatibility/
acrobatsunfish 4y ago
It will kill birds in your house though, be warned!

mensetmanusman 4y ago

Sugar does those things.