7 ms·

That's honestly one of the things I wish we could get a handle on. Company gets sued for using and hiding the danger of a compound they learned fairly quickly

That's honestly one of the things I wish we could get a handle on. Company gets sued for using and hiding the danger of a compound they learned fairly quickly was toxic. Goes and invents another compound and switches to it without having to prove its safety. After it becoming public that they were intentionally hiding dangers for a half century, I feel we should take away their ability to be given the benefit of the doubt. All I think they learn from these lawsuits is that they need to get better at identifying and removing people who will call them out on their bullshit. Edit - I know the whole thing with DuPont was using PFOAs in the manufacturing process and leaking (intentionally dumping) them into the environment, but it's not like the final product (Teflon) is safe to ingest either, which as a cooking surface, you most definitely will in some quantity.

ars 4y ago
> but it's not like the final product (Teflon) is safe to ingest either Sure it is. I don't think a less toxic material than Teflon even exists. It's toxicity is comparable to water. The LD50 of Teflon is > 11,280 mg/kg. Water by comparison is 90,000 mg/kg. They were not able to measure the exact toxicity because it's impossible to eat so much.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Dan_- 4y ago
  Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because something doesn’t kill you immediately does not mean it isn’t harmful.
  - ars 4y ago
    Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...
      - ars 4y ago
        Here you go: https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-teflon-flakes-found-frying-pan/ https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-tefl... PTFE goes out unchanged from how it was when it went in. It's completely inert. It's even used in implants, so has plenty of long term studies: https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/uploads/2021/11/jarchow-safetyand-efficacyptfeimplants.pdf https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/upload... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ How many studies are you looking for?
        kragen 4y ago
        I really appreciate you making the effort to debunk the witch-burners; have you thought about doing it in a less ephemeral medium? Your comment will probably be here for a decade or more but nobody will read it after this month.
        quickthrower2 4y ago
        That said people here are engaged and interested in the topic and will remember. Whereas a blogpost may not get that traction. A Netflix movie maybe.
        blix 4y ago
        If asking for scientific research to support claims is witch-burning, truly science literacy is in a sad state. And I'm not sure I would really consider a "Go Ask Alice" column as peer-reviewed research.
        4y ago
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Sugar does those things.
- klabb3 4y ago
  Is LD50 a meaningful measurement for biopersistent and accumulated compounds? It seems like it would be quite useless, or worse, misleading. I recall that large blobs of mercury was used as a homemade remedy for stomach issues which turned out to not be a great idea for obvious reasons, although it's LD50 would probably have been similarly high.
  - ars 4y ago
    Teflon is not a biopersistent or accumulated compounds. Teflon goes out exactly as it went in, undigested, unabsorbed, utterly ignored by the body.
- Teknoman117 4y ago
  Teflon in isolation may be fine, but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. The replacement to PFOA (GenX?) has also been found in modern Teflon cookware as well. Also, Teflon out-gasses at temperatures well below your average stovetop flame. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them.
  - userbinator 4y ago
    but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. Citation needed. The fumes are quite toxic. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. The dose makes the poison.
  - ars 4y ago
    > but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/questions-and-answers-pfas-food https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookware above 500F / 260C, that's it. Which obviously no one does since everything would be burned black. Oil is much more dangerous to birds than Teflon, since it will kill them at temperatures actually reached during cooking.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Even negligible amounts of something that never goes away and builds up in your blood is a problem.
      - ars 4y ago
        It does not build up in your body, it builds up in the environment. The amount in your body is basically exactly the same as whatever environment you are in. On top of that, how much PFOA would you imagine is even in a frying pan? It's already so little it's considered negligible, so unless you are buying new ones every day, even the negligible amount is not "building up".
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  LD50 only tells you acute lethal toxicity. LD50 can be astronomically high and a compound might still have long term, non-lethal toxic effects like injuring specific tissues. No one is even suggesting lethal toxicity is the issue here, so how is it relevant?
culi 4y ago
> Goes and invents another compound Bold of you to assume they didn't already have those other fallback options patented ahead of time

ars 4y ago

> but it's not like the final product (Teflon) is safe to ingest either Sure it is. I don't think a less toxic material than Teflon even exists. It's toxicity is comparable to water. The LD50 of Teflon is > 11,280 mg/kg. Water by comparison is 90,000 mg/kg. They were not able to measure the exact toxicity because it's impossible to eat so much.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Dan_- 4y ago
Bullshit. There is “toxic” and there is “causes cancer, even outside California, reduces fertility, and negatively affects fetal development.” Just because something doesn’t kill you immediately does not mean it isn’t harmful.
- ars 4y ago
  Teflon is not harmful. Period. It doesn't cause ANYTHING in the body. It's about the most inert material that you can possibly ingest.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Please cite the long term studies on ingested PTFE coatings that assert they are safe. I'll wait...
    - ars 4y ago
      Here you go: https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-teflon-flakes-found-frying-pan/ https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/fear-tefl... PTFE goes out unchanged from how it was when it went in. It's completely inert. It's even used in implants, so has plenty of long term studies: https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://dermnetnz.org/topics/polytetrafluoroethylene-implant https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/uploads/2021/11/jarchow-safetyand-efficacyptfeimplants.pdf https://www.facialplasticsurgerycharlotte.com/content/upload... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26110468/ How many studies are you looking for?
      - kragen 4y ago
        I really appreciate you making the effort to debunk the witch-burners; have you thought about doing it in a less ephemeral medium? Your comment will probably be here for a decade or more but nobody will read it after this month.
        quickthrower2 4y ago
        That said people here are engaged and interested in the topic and will remember. Whereas a blogpost may not get that traction. A Netflix movie maybe.
        blix 4y ago
        If asking for scientific research to support claims is witch-burning, truly science literacy is in a sad state. And I'm not sure I would really consider a "Go Ask Alice" column as peer-reviewed research.
        4y ago
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Sugar does those things.
klabb3 4y ago
Is LD50 a meaningful measurement for biopersistent and accumulated compounds? It seems like it would be quite useless, or worse, misleading. I recall that large blobs of mercury was used as a homemade remedy for stomach issues which turned out to not be a great idea for obvious reasons, although it's LD50 would probably have been similarly high.
- ars 4y ago
  Teflon is not a biopersistent or accumulated compounds. Teflon goes out exactly as it went in, undigested, unabsorbed, utterly ignored by the body.
Teknoman117 4y ago
Teflon in isolation may be fine, but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. The replacement to PFOA (GenX?) has also been found in modern Teflon cookware as well. Also, Teflon out-gasses at temperatures well below your average stovetop flame. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them.
- userbinator 4y ago
  but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm. Citation needed. The fumes are quite toxic. Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. The dose makes the poison.
- ars 4y ago
  > but your average cookware still contains enough PFOA left over from the synthesis process to cause harm That isn't true. "Studies show that this coating contains a negligible amount of PFAS capable of migrating to food." https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/questions-and-answers-pfas-food https://www.fda.gov/food/chemical-contaminants-food/question... > Toxic enough that you can't use Teflon cookware if you own birds. It'll kill them. This also isn't true. You can't heat your cookware above 500F / 260C, that's it. Which obviously no one does since everything would be burned black. Oil is much more dangerous to birds than Teflon, since it will kill them at temperatures actually reached during cooking.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    Even negligible amounts of something that never goes away and builds up in your blood is a problem.
    - ars 4y ago
      It does not build up in your body, it builds up in the environment. The amount in your body is basically exactly the same as whatever environment you are in. On top of that, how much PFOA would you imagine is even in a frying pan? It's already so little it's considered negligible, so unless you are buying new ones every day, even the negligible amount is not "building up".
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
LD50 only tells you acute lethal toxicity. LD50 can be astronomically high and a compound might still have long term, non-lethal toxic effects like injuring specific tissues. No one is even suggesting lethal toxicity is the issue here, so how is it relevant?

culi 4y ago

> Goes and invents another compound Bold of you to assume they didn't already have those other fallback options patented ahead of time