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I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jor

I don’t think that’s true — there’s second order effects in play, beyond shallow virtue signaling. People respect Jordan unlike Kapernick or James, because Jordan didn’t hypocritically involve himself in politics — unlike those two who haven been outspoken against racism and slavery… except for the slaves making the shoes they advertise. They’re perfectly fine profiting from those slaves. - - - - - I also think your example is ridiculous: not vocally criticizing is nothing like actively participating.

faizshah 4y ago
I think it’s almost the exact opposite, people respect Kapernick for his politics and activism and respect Lebron and MJ for their basketball. I have never heard of anyone respecting Michael Jordan for his politics.
alex_young 4y ago
Just to paraphrase a bit, are you suggesting that any athlete with any merchandise is hypocritical for stating any socially progressive opinion? That seems like a very rigid standard IMO.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  No, what I said was very narrow — if you outspokenly condemn historic slavery in the US while profiting from companies that use slave labor, you’re the definition of a hypocrite. There are “progressive” opinions unrelated which wouldn’t be hypocritical, eg, advocating for universal healthcare while profiting from slaves. Edit: example related to healthcare here, since I hit the posting cap — I think the closer example would be advocating for universal healthcare while receiving money from people who actively lobby against it to promote their product, eg, insurance companies. But part of why they’re “hypocrites” rather than “sellouts” is their lack of speaking out against Chinese slavery, the way Enes Freedom has done. https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/590392-enes-freedom-rips-warriors-investor-who-says-nobody-cares-about/amp/ https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/590392-ene...
  - alex_young 4y ago
    While I respect your position, I do think there seems to be something else going on here I don't understand. According to the standard you've outlined, wouldn't someone be hypocritical if they advocated for universal healthcare while profiting from selling products made by those living in a place without universal healthcare?
whimsicalism 4y ago
I don't really find this a compelling critique, but beyond that - the suggestion that what is experienced in the average modern-day sweatshop making your shoe is akin to the historical chattel slavery of the middle passage is absurd and hyperbolic.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I was referring to forced labor from Uyghurs.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    Even that, which I have not seen evidence that the median shoe is produced by Uyghur labor, is not comparable to the middle passage & chattel slavery.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      In what way do you believe they are substantially different?
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        In places where colonial chattel slavery was practiced, like Brazil, mortality rates were massive, living conditions were unimaginable, and people were bought and sold. The average African slave in Brazil lived to be 23 years old. The forced labor of interned Uyghurs, while reprehensible, is just not the same. Moreover, most shoes are not made with forced labor AFAIK.
bragr 4y ago
>not vocally criticizing is nothing like actively participating. That's not what we decided about the collective guilt of nazi germany.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  You’re wrong: We prosecuted those who actively participated at Nuremberg and still hunt Nazi soldier to this day… while we didn’t, in general, prosecute the German people.
selectodude 4y ago
As somebody who grew up in Chicago during his time with the Bulls, I can assure you that we all love Michael Jordan as a basketball player but I don't know anybody who has ever had a positive interaction with the guy. He's not somebody anybody respects.
awinder 4y ago
I would love to know how one generalizes & measures a respect delta between Labron James and Jordan, and then correlate it to social stances. Tiger Woods took issue with racism and exclusion in golf, no one is going around claiming Nicklaus is more widely respected because he doesn’t have a Nike sponsorship lol.

faizshah 4y ago

I think it’s almost the exact opposite, people respect Kapernick for his politics and activism and respect Lebron and MJ for their basketball. I have never heard of anyone respecting Michael Jordan for his politics.

alex_young 4y ago

Just to paraphrase a bit, are you suggesting that any athlete with any merchandise is hypocritical for stating any socially progressive opinion? That seems like a very rigid standard IMO.

zmgsabst 4y ago
No, what I said was very narrow — if you outspokenly condemn historic slavery in the US while profiting from companies that use slave labor, you’re the definition of a hypocrite. There are “progressive” opinions unrelated which wouldn’t be hypocritical, eg, advocating for universal healthcare while profiting from slaves. Edit: example related to healthcare here, since I hit the posting cap — I think the closer example would be advocating for universal healthcare while receiving money from people who actively lobby against it to promote their product, eg, insurance companies. But part of why they’re “hypocrites” rather than “sellouts” is their lack of speaking out against Chinese slavery, the way Enes Freedom has done. https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/590392-enes-freedom-rips-warriors-investor-who-says-nobody-cares-about/amp/ https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/590392-ene...
- alex_young 4y ago
  While I respect your position, I do think there seems to be something else going on here I don't understand. According to the standard you've outlined, wouldn't someone be hypocritical if they advocated for universal healthcare while profiting from selling products made by those living in a place without universal healthcare?

whimsicalism 4y ago

I don't really find this a compelling critique, but beyond that - the suggestion that what is experienced in the average modern-day sweatshop making your shoe is akin to the historical chattel slavery of the middle passage is absurd and hyperbolic.

zmgsabst 4y ago
I was referring to forced labor from Uyghurs.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  Even that, which I have not seen evidence that the median shoe is produced by Uyghur labor, is not comparable to the middle passage & chattel slavery.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    In what way do you believe they are substantially different?
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      In places where colonial chattel slavery was practiced, like Brazil, mortality rates were massive, living conditions were unimaginable, and people were bought and sold. The average African slave in Brazil lived to be 23 years old. The forced labor of interned Uyghurs, while reprehensible, is just not the same. Moreover, most shoes are not made with forced labor AFAIK.

bragr 4y ago

>not vocally criticizing is nothing like actively participating. That's not what we decided about the collective guilt of nazi germany.

zmgsabst 4y ago
You’re wrong: We prosecuted those who actively participated at Nuremberg and still hunt Nazi soldier to this day… while we didn’t, in general, prosecute the German people.

selectodude 4y ago

As somebody who grew up in Chicago during his time with the Bulls, I can assure you that we all love Michael Jordan as a basketball player but I don't know anybody who has ever had a positive interaction with the guy. He's not somebody anybody respects.

awinder 4y ago

I would love to know how one generalizes & measures a respect delta between Labron James and Jordan, and then correlate it to social stances. Tiger Woods took issue with racism and exclusion in golf, no one is going around claiming Nicklaus is more widely respected because he doesn’t have a Nike sponsorship lol.