4 ms·

It's disappointing, but just a fact of life now, that people will see the world so differently. People have always had differing politics, but there was a semb

It's disappointing, but just a fact of life now, that people will see the world so differently. People have always had differing politics, but there was a semblance of a baseline. I feel like we need a generation that strikes out against the notion of identity altogether (as I think identity is a core part of the issue), but that already feels like an identity in itself.

Razengan 4y ago
How else will I set myself apart from other people while also showing that any people are on my side?
wbsss4412 4y ago
Do you have particular examples of identity being a core part of the issue? I see people complain about identity politics all the time, but when it comes down to it, the individual issues that fall under that umbrella are things that people deeply care about and can’t just be dismissed.
- Swizec 4y ago
  People voting D or R because that’s their tribe rather than because they want those policies is an example. I know a lot of people who vote without even really reading what’s on the ballot. They just go with whatever option has D next to it. Others do the same but for R. Personally I can’t vote so it’s mostly an interesting phenomenon to observe
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    I feel like calling that “identity” muddles the term, as identity politics generally refers to categories like race and gender, and maps to feelings on issues such as abortion and the Black Lives Matter movement. To attempt to be helpful, I’d suggest that what you’re referring to is more of an issue of uber partisanship than identity per se.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - Swizec 4y ago
      Yes and uber partisanship is identity. We even call it identifying with your party affiliation. You can see this in how people say “I am a democrat/republican”. They don’t say vote or belong to or member of, people very explicitly talk about it as an identity and both or all parties encourage that.
      - wbsss4412 4y ago
        It is, but is distinct from the meaning of “identity politics” and not making that distinction causes confusion.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    The D vs. R tribalism is super visible if you're a G(reen). The Ds assume I'm an R, and the Rs assume I'm a D. My voter registration says "Pacific Green" and I vote Green/Independent most of the time when possible.
- kenjackson 4y ago
  I think almost all issues with any controversy seem to have identity at the crux. This is why there is virtually no principled consistency. That's why you have Defund the Police and then Defund the FBI. Or "athletes get paid too much" and "it's a free market". Or "go back where you came from" and "go back where you came from". Or "my body my choice" and "my body my choice". If I woke up tomorrow I think the supporters of each of these could just about flip and they'd be no worse off from a principled perspective. They just need to make sure those others in their identity group are on the same page.
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    How is identity at the crux of “defund the FBI”? “Identity politics” are generally considered to be issues related to things like race, gender, social class, etc
    - kenjackson 4y ago
      Yes, view identity as the group of people you identify with. It's a cross section of race/gender/social class/political party/geography/etc... "Defund the FBI" is just a reaction of a specific identity group -- largely the same group that hated people saying Defund the Police, fought for Blue Lives Matter, etc...
      - wbsss4412 4y ago
        You’re confusing partisanship with identity. I realize it’s seemingly a small difference or amounts to the same thing, but not making the distinction really muddies the conversation.
        kenjackson 4y ago
        I view them as different in that this is about your personal identity. An example, is if a Republican Governor commits a crime -- should I care? Not really, it doesn't change the party platform. Maybe a minor impact associated with their chance at re-election. But when your identity is caught up with party, now you start to defend the governer purely because of their party. It's not simply a party affiliation, but your identity. This is much larger and intractable than partisanship.
drewcoo 4y ago
I don't see the problem with people seeing the world differently now. I see the problem with there only being two lenses through which to see. Think of all the things we must be missing!
akira2501 4y ago
> but there was a semblance of a baseline. How did you form that conclusion? I think the history of this country itself forms the greatest counter example to this point. > I feel like we need a generation that strikes out against the notion of identity altogether This feels like misplaced austerity. Human beings living their short lives absolutely have the right to their own identity, these are natural rights and desires. This idea that we're going to fix this problem through deeper collectivism and removal of the individual instead of addressing the obvious problems of mass communication in our society is somewhat frightening to me.
trasz 4y ago
The “baseline” was established by ignoring points of view that didn’t align with the ruling class. It’s still largely the case, for example crime stories are popular, except for crimes committed by law enforcement, which - in some cases, like theft - is actually the majority of all cases in US, just not reported that way.
- kenjackson 4y ago
  Now we have a world where there is no baseline to even start a discussion. Depending on your perspective, either crime is worse than ever before and the criminal are running crazy. Or the only criminals are the system and those in power. You can literally find non-trivial populations in the US who believe that we need to build more prisons and others who think we need to free all prisoners. There's no place to even stand to begin to have a conversation.
  - trasz 4y ago
    Again, this was always the case. It’s just that most of us never noticed it, because the opposing views were hard to find.

Razengan 4y ago

How else will I set myself apart from other people while also showing that any people are on my side?

wbsss4412 4y ago

Do you have particular examples of identity being a core part of the issue? I see people complain about identity politics all the time, but when it comes down to it, the individual issues that fall under that umbrella are things that people deeply care about and can’t just be dismissed.

Swizec 4y ago
People voting D or R because that’s their tribe rather than because they want those policies is an example. I know a lot of people who vote without even really reading what’s on the ballot. They just go with whatever option has D next to it. Others do the same but for R. Personally I can’t vote so it’s mostly an interesting phenomenon to observe
- wbsss4412 4y ago
  I feel like calling that “identity” muddles the term, as identity politics generally refers to categories like race and gender, and maps to feelings on issues such as abortion and the Black Lives Matter movement. To attempt to be helpful, I’d suggest that what you’re referring to is more of an issue of uber partisanship than identity per se.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Swizec 4y ago
    Yes and uber partisanship is identity. We even call it identifying with your party affiliation. You can see this in how people say “I am a democrat/republican”. They don’t say vote or belong to or member of, people very explicitly talk about it as an identity and both or all parties encourage that.
    - wbsss4412 4y ago
      It is, but is distinct from the meaning of “identity politics” and not making that distinction causes confusion.
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  The D vs. R tribalism is super visible if you're a G(reen). The Ds assume I'm an R, and the Rs assume I'm a D. My voter registration says "Pacific Green" and I vote Green/Independent most of the time when possible.
kenjackson 4y ago
I think almost all issues with any controversy seem to have identity at the crux. This is why there is virtually no principled consistency. That's why you have Defund the Police and then Defund the FBI. Or "athletes get paid too much" and "it's a free market". Or "go back where you came from" and "go back where you came from". Or "my body my choice" and "my body my choice". If I woke up tomorrow I think the supporters of each of these could just about flip and they'd be no worse off from a principled perspective. They just need to make sure those others in their identity group are on the same page.
- wbsss4412 4y ago
  How is identity at the crux of “defund the FBI”? “Identity politics” are generally considered to be issues related to things like race, gender, social class, etc
  - kenjackson 4y ago
    Yes, view identity as the group of people you identify with. It's a cross section of race/gender/social class/political party/geography/etc... "Defund the FBI" is just a reaction of a specific identity group -- largely the same group that hated people saying Defund the Police, fought for Blue Lives Matter, etc...
    - wbsss4412 4y ago
      You’re confusing partisanship with identity. I realize it’s seemingly a small difference or amounts to the same thing, but not making the distinction really muddies the conversation.
      - kenjackson 4y ago
        I view them as different in that this is about your personal identity. An example, is if a Republican Governor commits a crime -- should I care? Not really, it doesn't change the party platform. Maybe a minor impact associated with their chance at re-election. But when your identity is caught up with party, now you start to defend the governer purely because of their party. It's not simply a party affiliation, but your identity. This is much larger and intractable than partisanship.

drewcoo 4y ago

I don't see the problem with people seeing the world differently now. I see the problem with there only being two lenses through which to see. Think of all the things we must be missing!

akira2501 4y ago

> but there was a semblance of a baseline. How did you form that conclusion? I think the history of this country itself forms the greatest counter example to this point. > I feel like we need a generation that strikes out against the notion of identity altogether This feels like misplaced austerity. Human beings living their short lives absolutely have the right to their own identity, these are natural rights and desires. This idea that we're going to fix this problem through deeper collectivism and removal of the individual instead of addressing the obvious problems of mass communication in our society is somewhat frightening to me.

trasz 4y ago

The “baseline” was established by ignoring points of view that didn’t align with the ruling class. It’s still largely the case, for example crime stories are popular, except for crimes committed by law enforcement, which - in some cases, like theft - is actually the majority of all cases in US, just not reported that way.

kenjackson 4y ago
Now we have a world where there is no baseline to even start a discussion. Depending on your perspective, either crime is worse than ever before and the criminal are running crazy. Or the only criminals are the system and those in power. You can literally find non-trivial populations in the US who believe that we need to build more prisons and others who think we need to free all prisoners. There's no place to even stand to begin to have a conversation.
- trasz 4y ago
  Again, this was always the case. It’s just that most of us never noticed it, because the opposing views were hard to find.