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Guessing C for Every Answer Is Now Enough to Pass the NY State Algebra Exam

133 points by spekcular 4y ago

fortyseven 4y ago
And guessing "si" for every question will let you pass that Spanish exam.
drost 4y ago
In the Navy, we take exams for rank advancement -- we have a phrase. When in doubt, Charlie out. In other words, if you don't know, guess C and move on
- madcaptenor 4y ago
  But why C, and not A or B or D? I've heard there's a tendency to put the "right" answer in the middle, especially if the answers to a question are numerical. Or maybe it's just that you need to pick something, so why not C?
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    Well with a sample size of one the 2022 test had 9/24 the answers as C which is above an expected (6/24) 25%. Definitely some of the more annoying tests I've taken were when the answers were the same over and over. Its so weird to answer a T/F as T 10 times in a row and I've definitely lost points because I changed some of my Ts to Fs because I thought there was no way it was all Ts.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Or maybe it's just that you need to pick something, so why not C? Mostly this. That said, one definitely picks up when teachers bias the dice. Some want an even distribution. If you confidently answered C's and D's early on and were later forced between A and C, A was the lucky bet. Other teachers avoided the first and last choices like the plague; this was common. With them, B and C (on a four-choice test) were the lucky bets.
- saghm 4y ago
  In my AP European History class in high school, we had a 25 question quiz the next day every time we were assigned a chapter to read in the textbook (maybe once every week or two). They were intentionally difficult to try to encourage us to read closely, often asking about specific details that were only mentioned once in the chapter, and they were heavily curved, so getting even around half of the questions right generally would get you a decent grade. The teacher had a habit of making the last choice of each question be a combination of two of the earlier choices (e.g. "both A and C"), and these often ended up being the right answer to the point where one of my classmates came up with the idea of choosing the last choice in every single question to try to get an easy passing score. Unfortunately for him, he was a bit too proud of this idea and talked about it enough beforehand that the teacher caught wind of it and purposely made none of the answers on the next quiz have the last choice be correct. Not sure how well that would go over in the Navy, but I'd certainly still be a bit worried that the exam writer might know the rule of thumb people use and have a bit of fun at my expense!
  - madcaptenor 4y ago
    and "when in doubt, Charlie out" is well-enough known that you can google it, so probably whoever's writing the test knows it...
- MiguelX413 4y ago
  I heard it every time I took the SAT.
dixie_land 4y ago
In this age of computerized tests, it shouldn’t be hard to randomize the ordering of choices for every question. We keep lowering the bars on tests to give a trophy to every kid, and we “pickachu face” when we fall behind china on STEM
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > it shouldn’t be hard to randomize the ordering of choices for every question This article works equally well for guessing A, B or D on every question. The problem isn't randomization.
  - dixie_land 4y ago
    I meant this as two-parts: 1. it's trivia nowadays to make sure 25% distribution of answers for MC; and 2. I agree with you, in that the main problem is that you only need 17% to pass, i.e. participation awards
  - naniwaduni 4y ago
    Well, C works better for this particular test because it has unusually many C answers in the multiple choice. Relying only on points from MC questions, you would expect to pass ~12% of these tests for any given choice of answer to guess every time. Now, having a single answer being correct often often enough to pass this mark would happen ~47% of the time, but between the blatant irresponsibility with the standard, the fact that C is the more or less the canonical answer to just guess when you don't (this might be regional or whatever), and the exactness of the cutoff, I wouldn't be surprised if this test were intentionally arranged to make specifically the "pick C" strategy a pass either.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- akomtu 4y ago
  "This would disproportionally affect ..." the rest you know. To be completely equitable, the school should send graduation certificates by mail to those students who chose to opt out of the exams.
tpoacher 4y ago
I for one am happy for River.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  River sounds like a cool kid who needs some guidance
Barrin92 4y ago
the low rating requirements aside, am I understanding it correctly that this regents diploma is for people who finished secondary education? This is what they ask 18 year olds? https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*g2H5nPUjOqRALs-AssFEng.png https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*g2H5nPUjOqRALs-AssFEng.pn...
- HWR_14 4y ago
  You can start taking the Regents test as soon as you've taken the class (it's not just an exit exam). You have to have passed one math class to graduate. So, yes, this could be the step that stands between an 18-year-old and their diploma. However, if you're on a college track, you have to take more math classes and tests than just the lowest level one. So you probably take it in 9th grade. And there are a lot of levels above "pass" to compete for. So to pass you needed to get 17/86 points on the test. But the cutoff for people who care at all about their academics is 67/86. And those who want to get into the public universities and have a good courseload there are aiming for 76/86 on all their tests. And again those people are taking the test at 15, so they can take harder tests in subsequent years. That said it's still inexcusably bad.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
geofft 4y ago
I'm genuinely confused at the criticism of the content of the questions and especially the criticism that they're "not hard". I mean, I guess they aren't algebra in the sense of "use the quadratic formula," but I'm not sure that's a useful sense. The question about percentages and the one about reading the graph are both eminently practical questions, ones that very directly respond to the algebra student's "When are we going to use this in real life" plea. I can see people needing to know this in any practical field of work - and I can realistically see people not knowing it, too. And plugging numbers into the quadratic formula isn't hard, either. It's a matter of knowing the definition, which is precisely a thing the author criticizes, and it's much more direct and mindless application of the definition than that question about whether a certain number is rational. (And is it supposed to be hard, or a good thing if it's hard? The goal should be that everyone passes; nobody needs a weed-out ninth grade math class. The questions should be meaningful, yes, and they should show that you actually understand the subject. But this is a subject we would, ideally, want everyone to understand well.) The actual June 2022 Algebra I Regents exam is available online and you can see what the questions look like: https://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/622/algone62022-exam.pdf https://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/622/algone62022-exam... Most of them look like conventional algebra to me. And there is indeed one use-the-quadratic-formula question! (The criticism that a zero-bits-of-information response passes is certainly valid, and could be easily solved by subtracting fractional points for incorrect answers, a common approach on other standardized tests.)
- EleanorKonik 4y ago
  Is this still common? I think AP recently moved away from subtracting points for incorrect answers.
  - kurupt213 4y ago
    That’s too bad. It was just a fraction of a point. It’s meant to make guessing (not educated guessing) a zero sum game
    - naniwaduni 4y ago
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
I think quite a lot of school systems tweaked the rules during COVID. Seems a reasonable thing to do.
- HWR_14 4y ago
  Why would it be reasonable to do? It's not like COVID made them somehow learn algebra. Apparently, they need to take the course again.
justthinkhn 4y ago
The trend is to either eliminate these exams or make them so easy that everyone passes. Why? Because we are unable to deal with the fact that certain ethnic groups consistently fail at dramatically higher rates than others. See the movement to eliminate the SAT and LSAT, to eliminate magnet programs, etc.
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago
  why do those ethnic groups perform poorly? are we talking ethnic groups versus whites who have gone to the same 3 elementary/middle/high public schools in the same cities/counties?
  - justthinkhn 4y ago
    - palmetieri2000 4y ago
      >As for the second question, the effect holds even when controlling for all sorts of things, like adoptions, location, socioeconomic status, etc. Please post a source for your claim.
      - justthinkhn 4y ago
      - justthinkhn 4y ago
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
  - Gigachad 4y ago
- 4y ago
ChrisRR 4y ago
Why is an algebra exam multiple choice in the first place?
- throwawayffffas 4y ago
  It's only a part of it that is multiple choice, the "outrage" exists because answering all the multiple choice questions randomly can get you a passing grade. The reason being the passing grade was already low, close to 30% of the entire test and was lowered even more in 2022. There is also some ranting about some cherry-picked questions that are really reading a graph. I had a look at the test linked by another comment, and I have to say the guy is over reacting, the test is age appropriate, the passing score is super low, but so what, I don't even get why the test has a passing score, you could just get a score. Also this is a test for children finishing junior high, there is no reason to have a high bar, it probably does not matter.
- _archon_ 4y ago
  Tests are easier to grade in a multiple choice format, since the grading problem is reduced to a set of circumstances that are friendly to being automated. Nowadays I'm sure it's possible to have a computer OCR the writing, check the algebra, and grade a problem... but it's a lot cheaper and easier to have the test taker choose the answer from a labeled subset and then check their choice against the correct label.

133 points by spekcular 4y ago

And guessing "si" for every question will let you pass that Spanish exam.

In the Navy, we take exams for rank advancement -- we have a phrase. When in doubt, Charlie out. In other words, if you don't know, guess C and move on

madcaptenor 4y ago
But why C, and not A or B or D? I've heard there's a tendency to put the "right" answer in the middle, especially if the answers to a question are numerical. Or maybe it's just that you need to pick something, so why not C?
- lesuorac 4y ago
  Well with a sample size of one the 2022 test had 9/24 the answers as C which is above an expected (6/24) 25%. Definitely some of the more annoying tests I've taken were when the answers were the same over and over. Its so weird to answer a T/F as T 10 times in a row and I've definitely lost points because I changed some of my Ts to Fs because I thought there was no way it was all Ts.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Or maybe it's just that you need to pick something, so why not C? Mostly this. That said, one definitely picks up when teachers bias the dice. Some want an even distribution. If you confidently answered C's and D's early on and were later forced between A and C, A was the lucky bet. Other teachers avoided the first and last choices like the plague; this was common. With them, B and C (on a four-choice test) were the lucky bets.
saghm 4y ago
In my AP European History class in high school, we had a 25 question quiz the next day every time we were assigned a chapter to read in the textbook (maybe once every week or two). They were intentionally difficult to try to encourage us to read closely, often asking about specific details that were only mentioned once in the chapter, and they were heavily curved, so getting even around half of the questions right generally would get you a decent grade. The teacher had a habit of making the last choice of each question be a combination of two of the earlier choices (e.g. "both A and C"), and these often ended up being the right answer to the point where one of my classmates came up with the idea of choosing the last choice in every single question to try to get an easy passing score. Unfortunately for him, he was a bit too proud of this idea and talked about it enough beforehand that the teacher caught wind of it and purposely made none of the answers on the next quiz have the last choice be correct. Not sure how well that would go over in the Navy, but I'd certainly still be a bit worried that the exam writer might know the rule of thumb people use and have a bit of fun at my expense!
- madcaptenor 4y ago
  and "when in doubt, Charlie out" is well-enough known that you can google it, so probably whoever's writing the test knows it...
MiguelX413 4y ago
I heard it every time I took the SAT.

dixie_land 4y ago

In this age of computerized tests, it shouldn’t be hard to randomize the ordering of choices for every question. We keep lowering the bars on tests to give a trophy to every kid, and we “pickachu face” when we fall behind china on STEM

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> it shouldn’t be hard to randomize the ordering of choices for every question This article works equally well for guessing A, B or D on every question. The problem isn't randomization.
- dixie_land 4y ago
  I meant this as two-parts: 1. it's trivia nowadays to make sure 25% distribution of answers for MC; and 2. I agree with you, in that the main problem is that you only need 17% to pass, i.e. participation awards
- naniwaduni 4y ago
  Well, C works better for this particular test because it has unusually many C answers in the multiple choice. Relying only on points from MC questions, you would expect to pass ~12% of these tests for any given choice of answer to guess every time. Now, having a single answer being correct often often enough to pass this mark would happen ~47% of the time, but between the blatant irresponsibility with the standard, the fact that C is the more or less the canonical answer to just guess when you don't (this might be regional or whatever), and the exactness of the cutoff, I wouldn't be surprised if this test were intentionally arranged to make specifically the "pick C" strategy a pass either.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
akomtu 4y ago
"This would disproportionally affect ..." the rest you know. To be completely equitable, the school should send graduation certificates by mail to those students who chose to opt out of the exams.

tpoacher 4y ago

I for one am happy for River.

kurupt213 4y ago
River sounds like a cool kid who needs some guidance

Barrin92 4y ago

the low rating requirements aside, am I understanding it correctly that this regents diploma is for people who finished secondary education? This is what they ask 18 year olds? https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*g2H5nPUjOqRALs-AssFEng.png https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*g2H5nPUjOqRALs-AssFEng.pn...

HWR_14 4y ago
You can start taking the Regents test as soon as you've taken the class (it's not just an exit exam). You have to have passed one math class to graduate. So, yes, this could be the step that stands between an 18-year-old and their diploma. However, if you're on a college track, you have to take more math classes and tests than just the lowest level one. So you probably take it in 9th grade. And there are a lot of levels above "pass" to compete for. So to pass you needed to get 17/86 points on the test. But the cutoff for people who care at all about their academics is 67/86. And those who want to get into the public universities and have a good courseload there are aiming for 76/86 on all their tests. And again those people are taking the test at 15, so they can take harder tests in subsequent years. That said it's still inexcusably bad.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

geofft 4y ago

I'm genuinely confused at the criticism of the content of the questions and especially the criticism that they're "not hard". I mean, I guess they aren't algebra in the sense of "use the quadratic formula," but I'm not sure that's a useful sense. The question about percentages and the one about reading the graph are both eminently practical questions, ones that very directly respond to the algebra student's "When are we going to use this in real life" plea. I can see people needing to know this in any practical field of work - and I can realistically see people not knowing it, too. And plugging numbers into the quadratic formula isn't hard, either. It's a matter of knowing the definition, which is precisely a thing the author criticizes, and it's much more direct and mindless application of the definition than that question about whether a certain number is rational. (And is it supposed to be hard, or a good thing if it's hard? The goal should be that everyone passes; nobody needs a weed-out ninth grade math class. The questions should be meaningful, yes, and they should show that you actually understand the subject. But this is a subject we would, ideally, want everyone to understand well.) The actual June 2022 Algebra I Regents exam is available online and you can see what the questions look like: https://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/622/algone62022-exam.pdf https://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/622/algone62022-exam... Most of them look like conventional algebra to me. And there is indeed one use-the-quadratic-formula question! (The criticism that a zero-bits-of-information response passes is certainly valid, and could be easily solved by subtracting fractional points for incorrect answers, a common approach on other standardized tests.)

EleanorKonik 4y ago
Is this still common? I think AP recently moved away from subtracting points for incorrect answers.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  That’s too bad. It was just a fraction of a point. It’s meant to make guessing (not educated guessing) a zero sum game
  - naniwaduni 4y ago

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

I think quite a lot of school systems tweaked the rules during COVID. Seems a reasonable thing to do.

HWR_14 4y ago
Why would it be reasonable to do? It's not like COVID made them somehow learn algebra. Apparently, they need to take the course again.

justthinkhn 4y ago

The trend is to either eliminate these exams or make them so easy that everyone passes. Why? Because we are unable to deal with the fact that certain ethnic groups consistently fail at dramatically higher rates than others. See the movement to eliminate the SAT and LSAT, to eliminate magnet programs, etc.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago
why do those ethnic groups perform poorly? are we talking ethnic groups versus whites who have gone to the same 3 elementary/middle/high public schools in the same cities/counties?
- justthinkhn 4y ago
  - palmetieri2000 4y ago
    >As for the second question, the effect holds even when controlling for all sorts of things, like adoptions, location, socioeconomic status, etc. Please post a source for your claim.
    - justthinkhn 4y ago
    - justthinkhn 4y ago
- Dalewyn 4y ago
- Gigachad 4y ago
4y ago

ChrisRR 4y ago

Why is an algebra exam multiple choice in the first place?

throwawayffffas 4y ago
It's only a part of it that is multiple choice, the "outrage" exists because answering all the multiple choice questions randomly can get you a passing grade. The reason being the passing grade was already low, close to 30% of the entire test and was lowered even more in 2022. There is also some ranting about some cherry-picked questions that are really reading a graph. I had a look at the test linked by another comment, and I have to say the guy is over reacting, the test is age appropriate, the passing score is super low, but so what, I don't even get why the test has a passing score, you could just get a score. Also this is a test for children finishing junior high, there is no reason to have a high bar, it probably does not matter.
_archon_ 4y ago
Tests are easier to grade in a multiple choice format, since the grading problem is reduced to a set of circumstances that are friendly to being automated. Nowadays I'm sure it's possible to have a computer OCR the writing, check the algebra, and grade a problem... but it's a lot cheaper and easier to have the test taker choose the answer from a labeled subset and then check their choice against the correct label.