4 ms·

I know nothing about Delphi, but I guarantee that I could take any UI you designed in a day in Delphi and get something equivalent on the web in the same amount

I know nothing about Delphi, but I guarantee that I could take any UI you designed in a day in Delphi and get something equivalent on the web in the same amount of time. Sticking a bunch of inputs on a page (even with some nesting) isn't complex at all. I think you are doing your customers a great disservice by not learning about web development.

mikewarot 4y ago
Can you guarantee it'll run on the same machine, with the same browser, in 5 years, with no changes? Win32 is bedrock, the web is quicksand. Look at "HTTPS everywhere" and "you don't need FTP any more", which did little in terms of actual security, but broke almost everything in some small way. The web doesn't value legacy. It's a petulant 22 year old, that thinks it knows everything, and does stuff deliberately against the advice of those with more experience.
- jaywalk 4y ago
  You are completely exaggerating the backwards-compatibility issues that web developers face. There are web applications I wrote 15 years ago that are still working today, in modern browsers, with zero changes. And I wasn't nearly experienced as I am today, and didn't even think about future-proofing anything. Is the web as stable as Win32? No, of course it's not. But a page with 150 inputs isn't anything that requires cutting-edge web technologies. It'll work just as well today as it'll work in 5 years.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    I'm not sure backwards compatibility is necessarily the main issue - I agree web apps built 15 years ago are reasonably likely to still function today but user expectations have changed a lot and they will feel like apps that are anachronistic. Plus there are often issues with using older SSL protocols , certs signed by no-longer trusted root CAs, and of choose anything using Flash or ActiveX controls etc. is almost certainly now broken beyond repair. The other difference is that users expect web apps to keep working using a variety of browsers (that are constantly evolving) and the backend hosting side posts presents challenges in terms of keeping it running in the face of changing hosting providers, security and availability concerns, cost etc. etc. On that basis I'd agree a desktop app built now is far more likely to still be working as expected with zero maintenance in 15 years time than a web-based one.
- teg4n_ 4y ago
  The whole motto of the web is “don’t break the web”. Backwards compatibility is taken very seriously. If a new browser version breaks an old site it’s a bug.
- junon 4y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of the web in general, but your assertions here are, plainly, incorrect.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  Yes. In fact the entire javascript toolchain that HN is always bemoaning is there to make sure that an application runs on 15 year old browsers just fine.
- ehvatum 4y ago
  Really, yes. Use plain html, no CSS, no JavaScript, CGI implemented in some boring language, and plain http without ssl on the intranet and require vpn to connect from the outside.
magicalhippo 4y ago
> I think you are doing your customers a great disservice by not learning about web development. Sticking a bunch of inputs in a HTML page is indeed not complex, but it has to look decent (labels and corresponding inputs line up vertically etc) and be functional (ie with sensible tab order etc). To get a sense of what we've got in Delphi, here's a demo video[1] illustrating making a simple input box. This is a "entry level" demo, but it's representative (though we don't use the runtime customization). I'd really appreciate input on something which could allow us similar decent looking UI with similar effort on the web. Like, note how "Last Name" lines up with "Product ID" below, even though they're in different groups. Things like that. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKmYwB__YE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKmYwB__YE
- jaywalk 4y ago
  CSS Grid Layout would be the modern way of doing that on the web. But even old school HTML tables could easily accomplish the UI in that video.
  - magicalhippo 4y ago
    > CSS Grid Layout would be the modern way of doing that on the web. How do you handle the transition at 2:04 where "Last Name" is moved from its own row to sharing a row with "First Name"? Keep in mind I might want to add a third element in that row afterwards. IIRC with tables you'd have to modify the column spans of all the other rows which is way too much effort. How does it work with the CSS grid layout?
    - hasperdi 4y ago
      With CSS grid you can define row & column template, and assign names to them. Then name your fieldset to be placed in there. Search CSS Tricks Grid, if you want to know more
    - mhuffman 4y ago
      >How do you handle the transition at 2:04 where "Last Name" is moved from its own row to sharing a row with "First Name"? Keep in mind I might want to add a third element in that row afterwards. This is pretty simple with CSS grid -- literally takes a couple of seconds. I am a fan of Delphi, and used it myself in the late 90s, but I think you just might just give it more credit due to familiarity. There are benefits to a web-app these days, due to the onerous requirements and demands of different operating systems and platforms.

mikewarot 4y ago

Can you guarantee it'll run on the same machine, with the same browser, in 5 years, with no changes? Win32 is bedrock, the web is quicksand. Look at "HTTPS everywhere" and "you don't need FTP any more", which did little in terms of actual security, but broke almost everything in some small way. The web doesn't value legacy. It's a petulant 22 year old, that thinks it knows everything, and does stuff deliberately against the advice of those with more experience.

jaywalk 4y ago
You are completely exaggerating the backwards-compatibility issues that web developers face. There are web applications I wrote 15 years ago that are still working today, in modern browsers, with zero changes. And I wasn't nearly experienced as I am today, and didn't even think about future-proofing anything. Is the web as stable as Win32? No, of course it's not. But a page with 150 inputs isn't anything that requires cutting-edge web technologies. It'll work just as well today as it'll work in 5 years.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  I'm not sure backwards compatibility is necessarily the main issue - I agree web apps built 15 years ago are reasonably likely to still function today but user expectations have changed a lot and they will feel like apps that are anachronistic. Plus there are often issues with using older SSL protocols , certs signed by no-longer trusted root CAs, and of choose anything using Flash or ActiveX controls etc. is almost certainly now broken beyond repair. The other difference is that users expect web apps to keep working using a variety of browsers (that are constantly evolving) and the backend hosting side posts presents challenges in terms of keeping it running in the face of changing hosting providers, security and availability concerns, cost etc. etc. On that basis I'd agree a desktop app built now is far more likely to still be working as expected with zero maintenance in 15 years time than a web-based one.
teg4n_ 4y ago
The whole motto of the web is “don’t break the web”. Backwards compatibility is taken very seriously. If a new browser version breaks an old site it’s a bug.
junon 4y ago
I'm not a huge fan of the web in general, but your assertions here are, plainly, incorrect.
selfmodruntime 4y ago
Yes. In fact the entire javascript toolchain that HN is always bemoaning is there to make sure that an application runs on 15 year old browsers just fine.
ehvatum 4y ago
Really, yes. Use plain html, no CSS, no JavaScript, CGI implemented in some boring language, and plain http without ssl on the intranet and require vpn to connect from the outside.

magicalhippo 4y ago

> I think you are doing your customers a great disservice by not learning about web development. Sticking a bunch of inputs in a HTML page is indeed not complex, but it has to look decent (labels and corresponding inputs line up vertically etc) and be functional (ie with sensible tab order etc). To get a sense of what we've got in Delphi, here's a demo video[1] illustrating making a simple input box. This is a "entry level" demo, but it's representative (though we don't use the runtime customization). I'd really appreciate input on something which could allow us similar decent looking UI with similar effort on the web. Like, note how "Last Name" lines up with "Product ID" below, even though they're in different groups. Things like that. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKmYwB__YE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiKmYwB__YE

jaywalk 4y ago
CSS Grid Layout would be the modern way of doing that on the web. But even old school HTML tables could easily accomplish the UI in that video.
- magicalhippo 4y ago
  > CSS Grid Layout would be the modern way of doing that on the web. How do you handle the transition at 2:04 where "Last Name" is moved from its own row to sharing a row with "First Name"? Keep in mind I might want to add a third element in that row afterwards. IIRC with tables you'd have to modify the column spans of all the other rows which is way too much effort. How does it work with the CSS grid layout?
  - hasperdi 4y ago
    With CSS grid you can define row & column template, and assign names to them. Then name your fieldset to be placed in there. Search CSS Tricks Grid, if you want to know more
  - mhuffman 4y ago
    >How do you handle the transition at 2:04 where "Last Name" is moved from its own row to sharing a row with "First Name"? Keep in mind I might want to add a third element in that row afterwards. This is pretty simple with CSS grid -- literally takes a couple of seconds. I am a fan of Delphi, and used it myself in the late 90s, but I think you just might just give it more credit due to familiarity. There are benefits to a web-app these days, due to the onerous requirements and demands of different operating systems and platforms.