4 ms·

The fabrics section is super interesting. https://learnmyog.com/fabrics.html https://learnmyog.com/fabrics.html The DWR coatings are something I'd like to be m

The fabrics section is super interesting. https://learnmyog.com/fabrics.html https://learnmyog.com/fabrics.html The DWR coatings are something I'd like to be more informed about. Does anyone have good links to discussions of options with pros and cons, environmental impacts, etc?

jsmith99 4y ago
Many of these DWR are integrated into the fabric but Nikwax sell some good environmentally friendly wash-in DWR. They also have a well reputed waterproof clothing line called Paramo which uses these coatings along with some other tricks.
- intrepidhero 4y ago
  Thanks for the tip! I'll check them out. I have an old backpack in need of a new DWR treatment, but with recent news about PFCs I was uncertain what to look for. It would sure be nice if the fabrics with integrated DWR were more upfront about what was in them.
nl 4y ago
https://durstongear.com/materials https://durstongear.com/materials is really good although mostly about Polyester vs Nylon variants. https://sectionhiker.com/dcf-vs-x-pac-for-ultralight-backpacks-pros-and-cons/ https://sectionhiker.com/dcf-vs-x-pac-for-ultralight-backpac... is X-Pac vs DCF. https://thetrek.co/ecopak-revolutionising-thru-hiking-packs-for-a-better-planet/ https://thetrek.co/ecopak-revolutionising-thru-hiking-packs-... concentrates on the environmental impacts, mostly regarding their EcoPak material which is a competitor to x-pack and DCF.
- almog 4y ago
  Dan Durston's posts on BPL are the goldmine I usually end up at when searching for technical explanation or classification of a fabric: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abackpackinglight.com+dandydan https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abackpackinglight.com+...
almog 4y ago
Cannot speak for the environmental but DWR is usually contains either wax, silicone or fluorocarbon. The latter is I think the more durable of the three. DWR on outer clothing layers such as shell works in tandem with inner PU or PTFE membrane that has pores ranging that are large enough to allow water vapor out but small enough to block non vaporized water. So why do we need the DWR layer at all? I haven't mention it so far, but this combination of DWR layer + Membrane is the basic setup for WP/B (Water Proof Breathable) garments, but the membrane layer by itself in most case should provide the most breathability and water protection, however it's such a flimsy layer that it'll be anything but durable. That's one reason why we need at least an external protection layer. Okay, but why should it be DWR? Imagine that we had a cotton layer on the outside. why, it could provide good protection to the membrane and could wick vapors too. The problem of course starts when the outside becomes wet, either by rain or by over sweating. Then the membrane could be as good as it can get, starts to buffer vapor, that vapor soon accumulate as sweat and everything breaks. The idea with DWR is to remove the "queue" of vapor as efficiently as possible - let it bead and drop, making room for more vapor to go out. That sounds great, however, DWR finishes break down, mostly due to abrasion and if not renewed (and DWR renewal only works to some degree), it end up being regular waterproof shell at best. Why do I say "at best"? because the problems do not end here — the membrane itself, in this setup, comes in direct contact with your body, it absorbs fats, salts, sun screen and who knows what, which clogs it, and over time, if not cleaned properly, makes gradually less effective in transferring vapor outside. What's more, the fine membrane structure over time, not only get clogged but will lose some of its structural integrity due to abrasion and will allow water in. So, like in that Simpsons episode, we had lizards, then we got snakes to eat them, so now the gorillas that eat the snakes* are for example, internal layer that sandwiches the membrane and protects it. That comes at some breathability cost and weight. Another solution which is simpler than WP/B is to embrace completely waterproof shell with good ventilation, depending on the kind of activity but I find that completely waterproof (non-breathable) fabric with pit zips works great in variety of situations. Some people would prefer a poncho which also provide excellent ventilation (but is less suitable for high exposure or bushwhaking). * And then just simply freeze to death when winter comes, problem solved, except that there are other inherent problems with the premise of WP/B (Andrew Skurka has a great take on it in his book)

jsmith99 4y ago

Many of these DWR are integrated into the fabric but Nikwax sell some good environmentally friendly wash-in DWR. They also have a well reputed waterproof clothing line called Paramo which uses these coatings along with some other tricks.

intrepidhero 4y ago
Thanks for the tip! I'll check them out. I have an old backpack in need of a new DWR treatment, but with recent news about PFCs I was uncertain what to look for. It would sure be nice if the fabrics with integrated DWR were more upfront about what was in them.

nl 4y ago

https://durstongear.com/materials https://durstongear.com/materials is really good although mostly about Polyester vs Nylon variants. https://sectionhiker.com/dcf-vs-x-pac-for-ultralight-backpacks-pros-and-cons/ https://sectionhiker.com/dcf-vs-x-pac-for-ultralight-backpac... is X-Pac vs DCF. https://thetrek.co/ecopak-revolutionising-thru-hiking-packs-for-a-better-planet/ https://thetrek.co/ecopak-revolutionising-thru-hiking-packs-... concentrates on the environmental impacts, mostly regarding their EcoPak material which is a competitor to x-pack and DCF.

almog 4y ago
Dan Durston's posts on BPL are the goldmine I usually end up at when searching for technical explanation or classification of a fabric: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abackpackinglight.com+dandydan https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Abackpackinglight.com+...

almog 4y ago

Cannot speak for the environmental but DWR is usually contains either wax, silicone or fluorocarbon. The latter is I think the more durable of the three. DWR on outer clothing layers such as shell works in tandem with inner PU or PTFE membrane that has pores ranging that are large enough to allow water vapor out but small enough to block non vaporized water. So why do we need the DWR layer at all? I haven't mention it so far, but this combination of DWR layer + Membrane is the basic setup for WP/B (Water Proof Breathable) garments, but the membrane layer by itself in most case should provide the most breathability and water protection, however it's such a flimsy layer that it'll be anything but durable. That's one reason why we need at least an external protection layer. Okay, but why should it be DWR? Imagine that we had a cotton layer on the outside. why, it could provide good protection to the membrane and could wick vapors too. The problem of course starts when the outside becomes wet, either by rain or by over sweating. Then the membrane could be as good as it can get, starts to buffer vapor, that vapor soon accumulate as sweat and everything breaks. The idea with DWR is to remove the "queue" of vapor as efficiently as possible - let it bead and drop, making room for more vapor to go out. That sounds great, however, DWR finishes break down, mostly due to abrasion and if not renewed (and DWR renewal only works to some degree), it end up being regular waterproof shell at best. Why do I say "at best"? because the problems do not end here — the membrane itself, in this setup, comes in direct contact with your body, it absorbs fats, salts, sun screen and who knows what, which clogs it, and over time, if not cleaned properly, makes gradually less effective in transferring vapor outside. What's more, the fine membrane structure over time, not only get clogged but will lose some of its structural integrity due to abrasion and will allow water in. So, like in that Simpsons episode, we had lizards, then we got snakes to eat them, so now the gorillas that eat the snakes* are for example, internal layer that sandwiches the membrane and protects it. That comes at some breathability cost and weight. Another solution which is simpler than WP/B is to embrace completely waterproof shell with good ventilation, depending on the kind of activity but I find that completely waterproof (non-breathable) fabric with pit zips works great in variety of situations. Some people would prefer a poncho which also provide excellent ventilation (but is less suitable for high exposure or bushwhaking). * And then just simply freeze to death when winter comes, problem solved, except that there are other inherent problems with the premise of WP/B (Andrew Skurka has a great take on it in his book)